Parents Gym owner also a judge at meet

[shelovestoflip]

Really interesting discussion and thanks to everyone offering their different points of view. My gymnast is at the lower levels and this was her first real meet so seeing the gym owner judging just really stood out to me. My daughter did fine and wasn't close to placing so this is really not about a personal situation, but more of others I saw and seeing how some tripped and forgot their routines and they placed higher than girls who from my naked eye seemed to be fine and got through their program with straight legs, pointed toes, etc... some of the basic things I hear are good. But anyway, it's a long road in this sport... Thx!

I think you make a good point about 'from your naked eye seemed fine' lol. So much of what we as parents see isn't exactly what the judges see! I leave the judging to them, the coaching to the coaches and, when my daughter was younger, I was in charge of hair. Now, my daughter is a HS senior, level 10. I'm pretty much just in charge of writing the gym a check, driving her to practice and getting her to the meets. I guess there are things we need to trust the process and know the people we pay to do a job are doing it right.

 

[Deleted member 18037]

Not trying to start anything, but why are you always so abrasive? This is a discussion forum, and no one is getting mean or being anything other than civil. It's a good discussion, and a lot of learning is going on. We don't need to be done.

I'm a blunt realist.

Never said you or anyone else needed to be done, you all can carry on for days or weeks. I never said you couldn't. But when I start to repeat myself multiple times and nothing new gets added. I am done. Didn't say anyone had to be.

 

[wandrewsjr]

Should not be allowed. I personally think that ANY judge with ANY affiliation to ANY gym should not be allowed to judge that event. In my option is should go further than that. What is to stop a judge who just lost kids to another gym down the street from being bias? nothing....

Ok, I'll bite. Though there are some judges who are not currently affiliated with gyms, the vast majority have had some kind of link to gyms at some point in their lives- retired coaches, former gymnasts, parents of former competitive gymnasts. What's to stop a judge who used to be a gymnast from being biased towards their former gym(or former competitors gyms)? What's to stop a retired coach from being biased towards a gym they may have been let go from 20 years ago from being biased? What's to stop a parent of a former competitive gymnast from being biased towards a gym where their kid may have had a bad experience?

Where are you going to find judges who have none of these potential biases?

 

[Deleted member 14190]

Ok, I'll bite. Though there are some judges who are not currently affiliated with gyms, the vast majority have had some kind of link to gyms at some point in their lives- retired coaches, former gymnasts, parents of former competitive gymnasts. What's to stop a judge who used to be a gymnast from being biased towards their former gym(or former competitors gyms)? What's to stop a retired coach from being biased towards a gym they may have been let go from 20 years ago from being biased? What's to stop a parent of a former competitive gymnast from being biased towards a gym where their kid may have had a bad experience?

Where are you going to find judges who have none of these potential biases?

Another judge should be used to judge a meet that has kids that you are affiliated with. Current affiliation . Yes you are correct , nothing can be done with past affiliations. I personally don't think that a coach at another gym should be judging the kids that they coach along side with other gyms.

 

[twinmomma]

Another judge should be used to judge a meet that has kids that you are affiliated with. Current affiliation . Yes you are correct , nothing can be done with past affiliations. I personally don't think that a coach at another gym should be judging the kids that they coach along side with other gyms.

I think in theory and probably in artistic in some regions this is possible. But in the sticks where there are fewer gyms/gymnasts/judges it's difficult. My daughter does T&T and our area is fairly small and the gym owner who runs most of the local meets has been known to judge. I definitely don't think the intent is to give his kids an advantage, it's a function of not having enough judges to go around sometimes. I don't really see it any differently than I see umpires in travel baseball being former coaches on specific teams or referees in soccer or whatever. It's a reality of youth sports. There's not enough qualified adults without affiliation to go around and we have to make do with what we have.

 

[wandrewsjr]

Another judge should be used to judge a meet that has kids that you are affiliated with. Current affiliation . Yes you are correct , nothing can be done with past affiliations. I personally don't think that a coach at another gym should be judging the kids that they coach along side with other gyms.

But you also said something about not judging a gym who you may have lost a kid to. That would eliminate anyone from judging who currently is affiliated with a gym from judging anyone else's gym. At least in my area, everyone has lost a gymnast to almost every other gym in the area at some point.

 

[vbdb]

Don't all judging panels have at least two judges? Isn't that to keep them honest? I can't imagine that someone wouldn't notice that there was a large discrepancy between the two scores or one strong armed the other into giving a better score which sends their favoured 8 year old level 3 to the top of the podium.
We don't have a huge pool of judges and they all know each other and are somehow connected in some way, either as former or current coaches or owners. We'd have to bring in judges from the US to avoid any possible idea of conflict.

 

[Deleted member 14190]

But you also said something about not judging a gym who you may have lost a kid to. That would eliminate anyone from judging who currently is affiliated with a gym from judging anyone else's gym. At least in my area, everyone has lost a gymnast to almost every other gym in the area at some point.

Very true, again, you should not be judging your kids and their kids at the same meet. That was what I was referring to when I said "that meet". It's an unfair advantage. I probably could of posted a more through post. Nothing can be done to completely solve anything with any sport when it comes to refs or judges.

 

[Deleted member 18037]

Another judge should be used to judge a meet that has kids that you are affiliated with. Current affiliation . Yes you are correct , nothing can be done with past affiliations. I personally don't think that a coach at another gym should be judging the kids that they coach along side with other gyms.

Amen I say to you.

And with a parent (CGM) as a judge, well that makes me even more concerned.

 

[flipster]

It is unavoidable situation. My DD was judged by one of the former coaches. She was scored low, I am not sure intentionally or not because she made a few mistakes. We moved on.

 

[LindyHopper]

I can't imagine that someone wouldn't notice that there was a large discrepancy between the two scores

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't there a rule limiting how big the discrepancy can be? Like, if it is over a point different, the scores can be taken back to the judges. I think the discrepancy can be bigger at lower levels than the discrepancy can be at upper levels.

I thought I heard this from one of our meet directors, and am really curious about if it's true.

 

[3rd_time_around]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't there a rule limiting how big the discrepancy can be? Like, if it is over a point different, the scores can be taken back to the judges. I think the discrepancy can be bigger at lower levels than the discrepancy can be at upper levels.

I thought I heard this from one of our meet directors, and am really curious about if it's true.

There are ranges, you have the right idea, but any out of range scores are resolved before the scores are entered. There's no taking the scores back to the judges. And the ranges have to do with the score, not the level, it's the same across all levels.

 

[sce]

I don;t think one judge can sway the outcome of an entire meet, as there are 4 (girls) or 6 (boys) events. Also, for girls there are 2 judges per event, so there should be a check and balance.

I hear that, often, a judge who is also a coach can be tougher on their own gymnasts, because they are looking for the things they know they do incorrectly.

 

[Deleted member 18037]

I don;t think one judge can sway the outcome of an entire meet, as there are 4 (girls) or 6 (boys) events. Also, for girls there are 2 judges per event, so there should be a check and balance.

I hear that, often, a judge who is also a coach can be tougher on their own gymnasts, because they are looking for the things they know they do incorrectly.

We lost the Team State Championship to the host gym. By .25. Came down to vault our last event. Hard not to wonder if an intentional difference of .1 on our kids vs theirs might of happened. Over and done. But you gotta wonder.

 

[skschlag]

Unfortunately, judging is a part of this sport. And we have lots of affiliated judges in our state..especially on the boys' side! It is what it is.

My son "lost" a meet based on a judge that didn't understand the new rules in teh code with JD. The judge gave a high bar score that was not technically possible. Or did my son "lose" the meet because of the steps he took landing his dismount and his rough pommel that day. While we know that the HB judge didn't understand the new rules, it is easier to focus on the things that you can change...sticking landings, tightening up, keeping legs together, toes pointed, etc. All those little details. They cannot control what the judges think on any given day but they do have control over their gymnastics

 

[wandrewsjr]

We lost the Team State Championship to the host gym. By .25. Came down to vault our last event. Hard not to wonder if an intentional difference of .1 on our kids vs theirs might of happened. Over and done. But you gotta wonder.

The judges were from the host gym?

 

[Deleted member 18037]

The judges were from the host gym?

I have no idea. But the scores were so close, I will always wonder. 1 of theirs get 9.9, 2 of ours 9.8s.

Again, been to 6 state meets, seen some home gyms win and not.... But this one stuck out..

 

[wandrewsjr]

I have no idea. But the scores were so close, I will always wonder. 1 of theirs get 9.9, 2 of ours 9.8s.

Again, been to 6 state meets, seen some home gyms win and not.... But this one stuck out..

I understand it sticking out because it was so close, but what about the scores made you wonder about whether the judges did their job fairly?

 

[Deleted member 18037]

I understand it sticking out because it was so close, but what about the scores made you wonder about whether the judges did their job fairly?

Again we don't look at specific scores, but we do get a sense of where our kids will fall regarding placement. My husband is a math geek, he knows how the trees are shaking out without looking at meet scores. All of a sudden there was these fantastic vault scores that weren't running with the pack. and yes you have those kids that are just wow................... Again, its over and done. An any given Sunday thing.............But ya wonder....................

 

[e'smum]

we ran into that a couple of years ago. i was so mad. it wasn't the owner but a coach from the host gym was judging beam and we happened to be up against the host gym. guess who scored the highest on beam? the host gym girls. and my dd beat them at the other 3 events. she ended up 2nd in the AA b/c of her beam score. it was so obvious. i could care less what order she came in as long as i feel the judging was fair. it was level *3*. that judge could have excused herself from judging that meet. that was the lowest beam score my dd got all year long. same for every other girl on our team. and my dd was in the child category with the majority of the host team. they took all the top spots in beam and barely placed on the other 3 events. seriously. i'm just glad their coaches weren't on any of the other events.

we got to skip that meet last year in 4 b/c our states were over by then but we are going back this year. it left such a bad taste in my mouth that i thought of pulling my dd from that particular meet.

our level 3/4 coach is a new judge and she said she would never judge our kids. it wouldn't be fair. but to be honest, she's tough as a judge and she'd probably give our kids really harsh scores.