Gyms profiting off team and required parent involvement? Business discussion

[Deleted member D3987]

I meant that many a kid is passed over for team if the parent is perceived to be a pain to be around. Why would anyone purposefully enter a situation where they would spend multiple days per week for many years interacting with someone they didn't enjoy interacting with. And if the parent is not on board with the program philosophies they will bad mouth the program from the inside before eventually moving to perceived greener pastures. Best to avoid either if possible.

are you sure you're not a club owner?

 

[Deleted member D3987]

Oh, and the buy out fee is typically so high because the team needs to have many volunteers to keep things running smoothly. If it were easy to buy out, the meets would be understaffed and visiting gyms would not want to return. Volunteers need to do admissions, sell raffles/pins, event score inputs and flashers, master score input table, beam timers, floor music players, announcers, snack bar, meet coordinator, set up, tear down, "floater/runner", restroom/garbage duty.... and probably a half dozen more I have forgotten.

do you and nevertooold own the same gym?

 

[Pineapple_Lump]

Just stopping in to point out that the OP is no longer a member here and this thread is old...

Carry on, the debate is interesting.

 

[barney66]

Barney,

perhaps your gym operates like many others in that it is NOT THE GYM hosting the meet, per se, but rather the TEAM. The team is usually financed by a separate entity than the gym. This entity is a booster club/parents club. They are a non-profit organization that works through volunteers and donations and dues. The gym hires the coaches to train the gymnasts. The gymnasts families pay the club for that training. Meets are paid for by the booster club and they are financed through dues and meet fees. The meet fees pay for Judges (2-4 per event per session,) food for the judges, paying the coaches to be present for the team gymnasts, awards and programs, and compensating the gym for any lost income from rec classes that had to be cancelled due to the meet. The meets are staffed by "volunteers." I put volunteers in quotations because as part of a requirement for being on team, every gymnast's family must join the booster/parent club- which typically requires that families volunteer at a meet or pay a buy out fee. Our families each need to volunteer a total of 22.5 hours this year spread over 3 hosted meets. We are billed $75/hour for any hours that we have not met.

From my perspective, you are getting off good if you only have to pay $100 total to not volunteer. The thing is, when I was approached about joining team, I asked what it entailed, and I payed attention to the answer. I attend meetings and read the minutes of the meetings to be sure I am clear. I do not see the gym as a babysitting service for which I simply drop off my kiddo several times a week and write a couple checks at the first of the month.

Gymnastics is a HUGE commitment of time, money, and resources of the ENTIRE family. This level of commitment only increases with each passing year. This is not a good fit for many families. That is why gyms offer advanced rec programs for the families that are unable to make this type of sacrifice. Being on team is an honor that requires hard work, time management and sacrifice by the whole family. There is no other way to explain this. I suggest you talk to your gym owner and find out what exactly the expectation is for families at your gym, then go home and have a family meeting and determine if this is the right path for you to be on. Good luck.

I understand all your points, To clarify my position, My gym just started holding meets. YOU SEE there never was any dialogue or minutes of a meeting to read as to WHAT THE REQUIREMENTS are. My gym holds their meets in their gym. I am not a novice to gymnastics. my child is a level 9 gymnast. I have been around this for about 8 yrs. so I know about all the ins & outs of holding a meet.
I asked her coach about an issue maybe 2 or 3 times in the 5 yrs i am there. I am never at her gym or unfortunately some meets due to my WORK requirements. So I am not the irrate parent that sits at practice all day all week & has to let the coach know what she thinks should be done... My wife is the one who has to take off work & lose her days pay for nothing in return.. I am not the only one who feels this way however many are AFFRAID to voice their objection for fear of a coach alienating their child. (which we know will happen, it is human nature) you described it in your post.

You see to say that the gym has to make up revenue because they are holding a meet is part of my issue. That is their choice not mine (as the other poster talked about my choice). It is part of doing business. Why should I have to make up revenue for them. As a business man I just can't fathom that concept (which many here stick up for) & never will.

As far as volunteering, to volunteer is to offer your service willingly (I am sure you know). I have NO problem with that If someone can do that for the gym good for them. Requiring someone to pay because you can't make up your revenue due to your choice of holding a meet is my issue.
The gym taking the profits off of your work & paying their bills & not sharing them with you in credits or team fee's is my issue.

Lets be honest here it's a business & we all know it. Most people just accept what they are told to do & do it. My gym situation is different then yours. As i mentioned my gym never had your experience of a MEETING to go over all aspects of holding a meet. YET i know what is involved as i said i am not new to this. My gym is making PROFITS off of their meets.

My problem is charging me $100 for not VOLUNTEERing when I know for a fact they have enough parents that would volunteer to cover their meet without any bad feeling if it was approached differently. Give them a share of the profits. I am not asking for a discount. I can't be there.

Look my bottom line is don't ask a parent to cover your business issue's for free if you are making a profit at your in house meet. Our kids that do not compete at these meets lose out on 2 days of practice that we parents payed for with tuition. They do not get those days back as make up days & it adds up. my daughter missed approx. 6 full practices with no make ups because off meets. So i am paying for time that she doesn't get coaching.
I Hope you are intelligent enough to understand my point. I am not asking for my money back for those days. It is part of the game however i do not forget that it has happened & nothing is offered at all in return but the gym still gets their full tuition for the certain amount of hours each month.


This is a debate i never once was rude or disrepectfull to anyone so the other poster that mentioned or said i was I do not know what you are reading..
Thanks for your time ESOTERIC, much respect!

 

[Esoteric]

I completely understand where you are coming from. If your gym is new to hosting meets, and they do not have a booster club to separate entities and there is confusion and lack of organization, I would imagine your are frustrated.

Our gym actually views meets as a fundraiser. After the annual budget (August-July) is figured, each family is assessed a monthly fee to cover team related expenses. Our monthly fees are payable from August- May. We do not go annually because so many kiddos leave the gym during the summer when the season is over. ( I was mistaken when I included reimbursing coaches for their meet time from meet fees. That money comes from our monthly dues. I knew this but somehow typed incorrectly while thinking about too much.) These expenses are coaching clinics, paying coaches for meets including travel, lodging and per diem when necessary, and end of year banquet and misc other items that the booster club approves. These costs are offset by fundraisers, a few of which are meets. After our last home meet, we reassess the budget, and any extra profits are equally distributed between gymnast accounts. Last year we had a surplus of over $9,000, so each gymnast account was credited $150, which mean we did not have to pay dues for the last months, and we still carried a small credit balance. These were not "gym profits," they were "team profits." As far as reimbursing the gym for lost income due to meets, that is something we CHOOSE to do because we know how profitable a meet can be- if hosted properly. The gym does not tell us we have to host a meet and pay them for their lost expenses. We let them know we would like to continue hosting our 2 annual meets and hopefully we were selected as a host for sectionals/states to bring it to 3 meets.

It sounds like your gym needs to get organized and figure out how the majority of the gyms run things. Once there is transparency, and everyone is on the same page there are still people that grump, but it is always their own fault for not paying attention. The volunteering can seem overwhelming, especially for some situations, but it ends up being a great time and you are able to interact with some people you wouldn't normally have face time with. For what it is worth, I am a single mum of 2, (although not bitter about it,) I take care of a disabled parent 3-4 times/week that lives way across town, I volunteer in my children's schools as well as with the local homeless population and a no-kill animal shelter, I attend 2 monthly PTA meetings as well as a monthly roller derby parent's meeting and gym parent's meeting I am back in grad school myself, work, manage the team bulletin boards at the gym, I maintain a clean home and yard, find time to curl up with a good book almost every day, and I still manage to volunteer my 22.5 hours annually. It just takes some creative planning. Employers are typically willing to work with you if there is adequate communication ahead of time. I understand the lost income frustration- and don't have any easy solution there- but I do wish you luck. And, as cliche as it may sound, I firmly believe that where there is a will, there is a way.

 

[gymluvr33]

I meant that many a kid is passed over for team if the parent is perceived to be a pain to be around. Why would anyone purposefully enter a situation where they would spend multiple days per week for many years interacting with someone they didn't enjoy interacting with. And if the parent is not on board with the program philosophies they will bad mouth the program from the inside before eventually moving to perceived greener pastures. Best to avoid either if possible.

Oh, whoops, sorry for the misunderstanding. Though I still agree with you

 

[barney66]

I completely understand where you are coming from. If your gym is new to hosting meets, and they do not have a booster club to separate entities and there is confusion and lack of organization, I would imagine your are frustrated.

Our gym actually views meets as a fundraiser. After the annual budget (August-July) is figured, each family is assessed a monthly fee to cover team related expenses. Our monthly fees are payable from August- May. We do not go annually because so many kiddos leave the gym during the summer when the season is over. ( I was mistaken when I included reimbursing coaches for their meet time from meet fees. That money comes from our monthly dues. I knew this but somehow typed incorrectly while thinking about too much.) These expenses are coaching clinics, paying coaches for meets including travel, lodging and per diem when necessary, and end of year banquet and misc other items that the booster club approves. These costs are offset by fundraisers, a few of which are meets. After our last home meet, we reassess the budget, and any extra profits are equally distributed between gymnast accounts. Last year we had a surplus of over $9,000, so each gymnast account was credited $150, which mean we did not have to pay dues for the last months, and we still carried a small credit balance. These were not "gym profits," they were "team profits." As far as reimbursing the gym for lost income due to meets, that is something we CHOOSE to do because we know how profitable a meet can be- if hosted properly. The gym does not tell us we have to host a meet and pay them for their lost expenses. We let them know we would like to continue hosting our 2 annual meets and hopefully we were selected as a host for sectionals/states to bring it to 3 meets.

It sounds like your gym needs to get organized and figure out how the majority of the gyms run things. Once there is transparency, and everyone is on the same page there are still people that grump, but it is always their own fault for not paying attention. The volunteering can seem overwhelming, especially for some situations, but it ends up being a great time and you are able to interact with some people you wouldn't normally have face time with. For what it is worth, I am a single mum of 2, (although not bitter about it,) I take care of a disabled parent 3-4 times/week that lives way across town, I volunteer in my children's schools as well as with the local homeless population and a no-kill animal shelter, I attend 2 monthly PTA meetings as well as a monthly roller derby parent's meeting and gym parent's meeting I am back in grad school myself, work, manage the team bulletin boards at the gym, I maintain a clean home and yard, find time to curl up with a good book almost every day, and I still manage to volunteer my 22.5 hours annually. It just takes some creative planning. Employers are typically willing to work with you if there is adequate communication ahead of time. I understand the lost income frustration- and don't have any easy solution there- but I do wish you luck. And, as cliche as it may sound, I firmly believe that where there is a will, there is a way.

Hey, Yes your gym sounds like it knows what they are doing. We get nothing. We have to pay for every party that is held at the gym for the kids, along with an end of year Banquet if they have it. There is nothing shared or given back to the kids/ families. There is no make up classes for any kids that miss for any reasons meets or otherwise. Oh wait a minute you can go to a make up class but you have to pay $25 for 2hrs ((see all business).
we have to pay all of our gym fees, assesments etc. in 2 payments. there is no money put aside to offset any fees we pay..
We are a big well known gym ( I am not trying to name bash) Our tuition is higher than most gyms. The coaches are very impersonal. They have the all business attitude. So I hope that paints a clearer picture.
You did not have to explain your sitiuation but i do appreciate it & give you all the credit in the world. Yes believe me I know how time can be made, that is what my wife does.. I make my time between my business & for attending a few meets & for my other child as well as my other job BUT I understand your point.

Yes it is a bad situation for some of us that feel the same way. Yet there are parents bending over backwards for the gym. Donating time, food etc. Most are the l4 or 5's. IMHO they are trying to jokey for the coaches attention towards their kids (I know some do it because they are good people also).
What I have learned over the years in this sport is at the younger levels parents are excited & think their child is going to the olympics ( hey I was there for a short time until I woke up) As time goes by they realise the commitment & difficulty in advancing levels their attitudes change.
We will see how things play out on my end. I am not optimistic at all. I feel very strong about my position on this as i have pointed out. I really believe deep down in my heart it is wrong. thanks again ,, much respect

 

[CoachGoofy]

From a coach's/judge's perspective:

I love y'all's kids. I really do.

But judging is kind of a pain. It's a lot of work, getting certified was stressful and expensive, maintaining certification is slightly less stressful but still expensive, obtaining proper judging clothing was also stressful and expensive, traveling to then sit in a chair and evaluate the same routines over and over, mentally exhausting. Yes, it is the kind of work that I expect to be paid for. I'd argue that it's harder than coaching.

Again, I love y'all's kids. Hosting a meet is for their benefit. I don't get anything out of it except for bruises and pulled muscles from dragging the equipment around; I'd be making more money teaching rec classes during that time than the per session rate. We host meets to afford to keep the program open so your kids have a team on which to compete. We host meets so that dues can be less. It is unreasonable to expect the gym staff to do everything for your kids. We love the sport-no one gets rich coaching-but we also are but human and cannot run it by ourselves.

I know I feel unappreciated like woah by families that are unwilling to do even a little for their kids' participation in the sport. I'm doing it for them, not for me.

 

[barney66]

Goofy ,, you are entitled to your opinion & I respect you for giving it but it still boggles my mind.. Having a team still gives the gym owner a steady stream of income to count on each month. rec classes can come & go. I know gyms make more money per hour on their rec classes but having a team affords one that steady stream of income that is so needed.

Being a judge is a choice. It it not your full time job (unless you are at the elite level) You do expect to get payed for doing it as you posted. You post all of your hardships in being a judge.. So why the double standard when I as a parent expext to compensated for my time when i have to lose money & deal with my hardships & then work for you??

My gym gives NOTHING but has started to expect everything. Tuition is not less because of our meets.. Go over my posts if you
missed anything about my scenerio..
Much respect

 

[Deleted member D3987]

barney66, you have completely missed coachgoofy's point. and you are presumptuously incorrect on more than a couple of your statements posted above.

it boggles my mind that you are in such an aggravated way. and you stated that you have been in gymnastics for 9 years with your daughter. if your gym really sucked wind, i'm sure someone who knows you and your gym would have already posted up how bad your gym is. or, you're a glutton for some kind of punishment.

so maybe we all just agree to disagree on this one. and i sincerely hope that your daughter IS having a good and memorable gymnastics experience as most kids do that participate in gymnastics.

 

[NGL780309]

One thing that you keep saying Barney is that team makes an income or a profit for the gym. The reality is that team does not make a profit for the gym in most cases. A lot of parents who have had kids in this sport for a long time don't get that or don't believe that or perhaps never realized because it was never explained to them. I am not a gym owner, but have had close enough ties being married to a gym coach and being close with several gym owners that I know this to be a fact. It doesn't matter if the team tuition is steady if it just barely covers the cost of having a team or in some cases doesn't even cover the cost of having a team.

I'm at a gym that runs meets and we must volunteer as well and donate items. The profit from the meet does not go to the booster club like it does in some situations, but to the gym. We were told that the profits were used to purchase new equipment. That new equipment benefits my child and the team so I'm perfectly happy with that. We (the team) don't make a profit for the gym, yet our kids are the ones that get the most use out of the equipment and are the ones who wear it out, not some preschool or rec class that barely uses it. I appreciate my daughter being able to have the best equipment to work out on and we don't have an equipment fee per year like a lot of gyms do.

 

[Deleted member D3987]

you get it ^^^.

 

[profmom]

Every time I volunteer for our hosted meet or participate in a team fundraiser, I know that I am helping to keep the costs and fees lower so that some of our girls whose families I know are struggling in these rough economic times can stay on the team. And maybe down the road, a few of them will win college scholarships to more pricey or better schools than they otherwise would have been able to attend. I never begrudge a single second or penny for that reason alone . . . though there are other good reasons to support the team with my time and money.

I've also found that if the gym is doing a fundraiser selling stuff that I know no one would want, they don't object to my throwing in a $20 bill to add to the pot.

 

[SignHere]

If you look at cost for team at my gym, for example, my older daughters are in Level 4 and 5 - they pay about $3.50 per hour for their tuition during the school year (now it seems like a lot, because it is divided into 2 payments, one September 1st, and one March 1st). My youngest daughter is pre-team and pays the same as the Rec classes - $10.40 per hour, payable at the beginning of each 10 or 12 week session.

Of course, you can calculate it up to the $40 / hour mark if you include leos and warm ups, meet fees, parent association dues, and travel costs - but if you compare straight tuition - those rec classes are WAY more profitable. And at our gym at least, they ALWAYS fill up. They don't need the team for a steady stream of income.

We have 3 meets per year - the parents are required to work a 4 hour session at each of them, plus a set up or break down once during the year, pay a donation to the concession stand, and the gym keeps all of the money that is made. It has never occurred to me to be bitter about it. It has been made clear (from the beginning), that if you want your daughter to be on THIS TEAM, that you are required to do THIS.

My personal feeling is - you know, as long people are upfront about things - require whatever you want. If you don't like it, go somewhere else.

 

[barney66]

Well all I can say is the last 3 posta, Dunno, NGL, & pro yoy all BOGGLE my mind. You must have not read my entire posts on the subject with the responses given.. Maybe it it a education thing. I have a Masters in Business so maybe my points are going over peoples heads..

I know gym owners very well also. I never said the team money carries a gym. IT IS A STEADY INCOME to help pay the bills. I responded to another post about teams & rec classes. The point was obviousley over your head

I said i am not the only one who feels this way in my posts, if you read them. My wife came accross this post (she is a member) so I chimmed in.. I am not walking around bad mouthing, spewing hate or being a gluten for punishment so Dunno my points have gone over your head also (maybe due to you being a gym owner???)
Ec is the only one that understood my valid argument.

NGL
There is no gym that is open & operating that IS NOT making a profit be it small or large. That is basic business 101. If you are trying to demonstate that holding a meet with parents volunteering & donating items is the only way a gym makes money or GETS money for things in the gym is just plain erroneous. What ever your gym is TELLING you about how they use the profits is great.

In house meets are 95% for the gym to get its name out there. You all said it one way or another "hold a good meet & people will want to come back"! People comming back means MORE MONEY FOR THE GYM, (especially when they are not paying anything for the meet) I can't say how big your gym is but mine is big with lots of people. We just stated holding meets. Prior to holding meets they were doing just fine. Our equipment is used plenty over the years & they are not buying equipment every time you turn around & the equipment is all good. maybe your gym is feels it necessary to purchase equipment every chance they get. I can't speak for them.

Again if you read my posts you SHOULD have acquired where I am coming from!!!! & DUNNO my daughter is not looking to "GYM HOP" at this stage in her career. As a parent I listen to my children rather then always tell them what they are going to due. SHe has a say in the matter. & god bless her because she feels the same way as I do. She gets it!!!

You know I have studied the behaviour of people in societies & it was very interesting to find that we as people (the majority not all, it was a universal study) are similar to cattle. If you can get one cow to move all the others will follow without due regard. I was amazed at the simple analogy because it was so TRUE.
The human brain is capable of astonishing achievements yet when we are placed in positions that might cause us to follow suit "we" revert back to the most primitive forms.
Look around you will witness it everyday..

To all, may you live your life as you want. May trouble never find you but if it does don't be affraid to stand up for what you believe in! My intention was never to make anyone agree with me. it was to question a wrong that came into my life.
I am signing out of this post to all much respect!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[wandrewsjr]

I think we need to start a separate forum for those with masters or doctoral degrees, because those of us without them are not capable of comprehending their arguements. It is clearly futile to attempt to make our feeble minds understand their points.

 

[wallinbl]

I have a Masters in Business so maybe my points are going over peoples heads..

Perhaps you have forgotten your Economics curriculum.

You argued that you're being forced to work for free instead of paying a fee. You're not working for free if it gets you out of the fee. You're working at the effective hourly rate given by the alternate fee divided by the number of volunteering hours. Your time is valuable and has its own opportunity cost (see next point).

You seem opposed to the gym giving you a choice between volunteering or paying a fee. Not everyone has the same opportunity cost to their time, so the gym is being helpful by allowing different members to make different choices based on their own indifference curve.

You argue that a low margin service is a steady income rather than recognizing the opportunity cost of the coaches working team practice is that they're not available for the higher margin recreational classes. You could potentially argue that there is prestige to operating a competitive team and the gym's performance at meets serves as marketing and drives new customers, but that would be difficult to effectively quantify and would represent an unknown risk to the gym. It's more likely that the gym owner's marginal utility from offering a competitive team exceeds the loss of profit from allocating coaches to it over the rec program.

 

[CoachGoofy]

The gym I work at isn't turning a profit at this point, yet we're not yet closed. Parent participation is key to us staying open--and it indicates that the families appreciate what we do enough to help us keep doing it.

 

[NGL780309]

Of course they are making a profit Barney, just not off team. They are making a profit off their huge rec program, cheer and the daycare they run during the day. You can have as many business degrees as you want (I actually have one too), but it doesn't change the fact that having a team is not profitable for most gyms. I'm sure there are some gyms that do make money off team. The majority don't. They have to make profit elsewhere to stay open and have a team.

Maybe with your advanced business degrees you should hold a business seminar to teach owners how to make money off having a team. The majority have not figured it out yet. All the gyms I know could not survive without rec. It's probably because they are just lowly gym owners with no real sense or education. They just love gymnastics and never took the time to properly learn anything about business. Most of them can barely comprehend the written word.

 

[gymmomof1]

Either our daughters are at the same gym or it is a coincidence that I used this post in an email to a parent at my daughter’s gym who is very angry with the owners and your daughter is at a gym similar to my dds and your wife was searching for answers and came upon this old post. Either way my intent when I put this post in my email was for that person to see that our dds gym was not unique in asking parents to help or pay out for the gym hosting a meet.

From you post I take it that you do not get tuition credit for working the meet, however at my daughter’s gym we do get tuitioncredit for working the 2-3 required sessions as well as either break down orset up. The owners of this gym I am speaking about have gone into debt to build this gym and it is a beautiful facility with equipment my dd likes working on some of which is new from when they built the bigger facility and some from the old one. Did they have to do this—of course not but this is their passion as well as my daughter’s. I likewatching my daughter do something she is talented at and really enjoys despite the challenges that come with this sport at a gym that has amenities (pits andmats, tumble tracks and rod floor etc.) and coaches that will help her acquires skills and bring the best out of her. This sport is not cheap and many times my husband and I ask ourselves what are we doing spending this much money on a sport for our daughter. Then we realizethat unlike other sports, not everyone can do this crazy gymnastics stuff. All these girls have a talent I admire and do things I could never do in front of people who are constantly critiquing them because that is gymnastics!

Back to the money issue. I am glad they host meets because then my daughter can compete in her own gym on familiar equipment andmy family can come and see her. Yes that means giving up my time and donate items. I understand not everyone is able to do this and I think booster clubs or parent associations may be a good idea to help those who can’t take off from work. Perhaps if your gym does not have this (mydds gym does not have one) then maybe you could start the ball rolling getting parents involved with it. In other posts I have gathered that it is separate from the gym. Being a business person you probably would be very good at setting it up and not only help easy your frustration but help other parents as well. I wish your daughter a good competition season