Women Is MAG better than WAG?

[Geoffrey Taucer]

As a coach, I wish the girls' side would relax and take things less seriously like the boys' side.

.... I also wish the boys side would take things a little more seriously; I have literally been to a MAG coach meeting -- like, an official thing where important things were discussed -- at a Hooters

 

[skschlag]

As a coach, I wish the girls' side would relax and take things less seriously like the boys' side.

.... I also wish the boys side would take things a little more seriously; I have literally been to a MAG coach meeting -- like, an official thing where important things were discussed -- at a Hooters

THat sounds accurate. lol.

 

[Flicfliclay]

I do not have a son in gymnastics, but one of my very good friends does. I will say.. she is just as crazy if not more so in regards to her son.. she has a daughter in gym too... I have watched her son compete and it absolutely is different and way more relaxed. I believe it will remain different because boys mature at a different rate that females and peak WAY later in life. I do wish WAG would start going more toward team goals/scores like college gym instead of the individual goals.

 

[Jamie1999]

Ah and here comes the condescending crud.

Yes, Just like I’ve never attended an Elite or Hopes girls training camp.

Most gymnasts never compete elite track. It’s doesn’t make us parents with our lowly gymnasts, in your opinion, of course (as we can see above). we are quite capable to give an opinion based on our ordinary compulsory, optional, state and regional meet experience.

I do have friends whose sons are in MAG. My opinions are based on my friends 1st hand experiences vs my 1st hand experience. Rather comparable “level wise”, age wise.

Also combined with my general experience parenting my male and female siblings after my mom dies. Parenting a boy now 26 vs a girl And my general sport experience personally with myself and boyfriend. Yeah I can speak to sport/gymnastics

Enough of a resume for you

But yeah you are absolutely correct I have 0 experience with elite level gymnastic.

Wow.
There was literally nothing condescending in that post.
Way to blow things out of proportion.

Edit: I see that has already been covered.

 

[JessSyd]

Your MAG post sort of sounds like the WAG experience in Australia. I do not know if it is because we do not have college gym so the stakes are lower, but I often think when reading chalkbucket that things seem to be less intense here. The commitment and expectations are still high, but fun is at the centre of the experience.

My personal experience of a few clubs as well as what I see at meets, is that most are inclusive.

You will see a huge range of ages across even the beginner levels.

You will see a range of body types, from pixie to overweight, tiny to tall.

You will see a wide range of abilities - all but the most sought after clubs will take anybody who is keen and who can be safe in the gym. I literally don’t know a single person who wanted to do competitive gymnastics but was told no.

We have a couple of intense meets each year - state trials and states - but the rest are really friendly. I have competition footage from regional meets that show not just my daughter’s team mates clapping after a routine, but kids and coaches from the other gyms they were rotating with too.

At an inter-club level things seem friendly (at least from the outside looking in). Coaches socialise with coaches from other clubs, staff shift around a bit. If I changed my daughter’s gym for whatever reason I would do so knowing that the original gym would take her back if we discovered it was the wrong move. This is not an uncommon thing to happen.

Things might be different elsewhere. I have four WAG gyms within 4 kilometres of my house, and another three if I was willing to travel slightly further, so consumer choice may play a role in keeping things friendly?

On the compulsory music side of things.....I cannot argue with that. I think most of our compulsory music and choreo is very good, but there is one level four routine with whistling that is very special indeed. But when I watch MAG I always think their floor would be more exciting with music. I love music. If I ran WAG, beam would be set to music too.

And crazy parents will be crazy anywhere. Gym, chess club, backyard cricket......

 

[twinmomma]

You simply can’t compare. Boys are different then girls. Emotionally and physically. Boys don’t do the relational aggression thing that girls do.

Add In mother daughter relationship are a completely different dynamic then mother son relationships (and usually it’s moms doing the practices and taxiing).

And the CG Moms don’t live vicariously through sons the crazy way some do through their girls.

Girls gymnastics much like dance and cheer bring out the crazy in Moms that just doesn’t happen in boys sports

Apples and oranges.

"Boys are different than girls." Nothing like taking years of work on things like gender inequality and sexism and flushing it down the drain. Here, let me correct that for you:
We TREAT boys differently than we treat girls. We don't expect relational drama from boys and we actually tend to foster it in girls. Society sees gymnastics as a "girls sport" so of COURSE (sarcasm intended) MAG would be more laid back.

Look. The reality is, WAG is about as dysfunctional as it gets (in the US). The secrecy, the backbiting, the intra- and inter- gym battles. The other disciplines don't get as much air time or attention ($$$) and just don't have the same craziness. Is there craziness? Yes, but not to the extent it is in WAG. This isn't because boys are different. It's because we TREAT the sport differently.

 

[Cheryl]

I agree that society in general expects and in many ways promotes inter-female drama (Real Housewives, Bachelor shows). Even in sports like Tennis, I’ve heard lots of commentary about personal rivalries between female players, but few comments about which male tennis players despise each other.

as far as my own kids, my son could walk away with the Drama King title, and my daughter doesn’t even get a mention.

 

[Deleted member 18037]

"Boys are different than girls." Nothing like taking years of work on things like gender inequality and sexism and flushing it down the drain. Here, let me correct that for you:

Boys are different then girls......
That is a fact

And folks treat boys differently then girls.
Also a fact.

These are not mutually exclusive things

And males and females should given equal opportunities regardless of sex.

Of course if it’s only about how the global “we” treat them then “we“ should just merge WAG and MAG.....

 

[Geoffrey Taucer]

I think it's a little of column A, a little of column B. Boys and girls are different, but not different enough to justify all the differences in how they tend to be treated. Some but not all of the differences are the result of how they are treated. A lot of the differences are self-reinforcing.

As for merging MAG and WAG, my if-I-was-king-of-everything solution would be to split them into two sports, both of which would be open to any gender. A gymnastics-like thing that embraces artistry and dance and creativity (modeled after WAG), and another gymnastics like thing that abandons artistry in favor of big skills done with precise technique (modeled after MAG -- possibly with a bit of T&T thrown in). Also both should be done primarily for performance rather than competition.

 

[profmom]

Huh. I was just googling to find an image of overlapping bell curves and stumbled across a simple piece that provides a good response to the "women are different from men" assertion. Worth scrolling all the way down to the bottom to see the final image. https://www.quora.com/What-are-Over...ow-do-they-affect-Quora-questions-and-answers A full response would require a deeper dive into the biology of sex and why it's not nearly as binary as we previously believed. I'll confess to a bit of irritation on this issue after having heard the argument that a L10 guy in our gym is stronger than Simone Biles because "she's a girl."

It's not what you want, Geoffrey, but NAIGC does have people compete the events they want. I am dearly hoping my daughter decides to train and compete pbars before she finishes her college years. She has almost enough skills to put a routine together now. And best of all, NAIGC is fun for everyone! (Off my NAIGC soapbox now.)

 

[springsforlegs]

Ah, Deleted member 18037, I can see you have never attended a Future Stars regional training camp.

Are you trying to tell me I am in for it with Future Stars this next year? Not sure I am ready for the "girl mom" parents!

 

[skschlag]

Are you trying to tell me I am in for it with Future Stars this next year? Not sure I am ready for the "girl mom" parents!

It isn't too bad in our region. We go watch a lot, and really, most of the parents are pretty cool. But there are always exceptions to the rules...

 

[springsforlegs]

It isn't too bad in our region. We go watch a lot, and really, most of the parents are pretty cool. But there are always exceptions to the rules...

We do live in a good region! I really do enjoy going to meets and seeing boys cheering on each other, both on the their team and not! Our meet last weekend, the parents and kids were cheering for each other and it was so great to see!

 

[skschlag]

We do live in a good region! I really do enjoy going to meets and seeing boys cheering on each other, both on the their team and not! Our meet last weekend, the parents and kids were cheering for each other and it was so great to see!

Yep Super common in our region! Gotta love it!

 

[cmg]

To me the difference between MAG and WAG is that in women's/girl's gymnastics the athletes are expected to be perfect at a very young age. I see Level 2 and 3 athletes with scores of 39+. That to me is crazy, how do you get a 5 -7 year old to be almost perfect?? I have watched a couple of boys gymnastics meets. It is much more about getting the skill but not perfection. Even the attitude during the meet is different. As one of the boys mom at our gym put it "Its like herding puppies" at the meets. At one state meet that our gym was putting on the boys sat in a big group on a mat and hit each other, poked at each other and wrestled, while they were waiting for their turn on the apparatus. They were just hilarious from my perspective. (obviously a younger age group, the older boys did not do this) This was at the STATE meet!! I was helping out and I was dumbfounded that it could be so different. At girls meets no one hits one another, the girls usually sit in a line, take their turn and then sit back down in a line and congratulate each other nicely even at a very early/young age. In order to be considered a top prospect and get into the elite track a girl has to score 38-39+ at the lower levels to get noticed. I can not imagine that at age 5-10 a boy has to be perfect. They just don't expect perfection from boys until they are more mature (at least this is my perspective). Girls have to be level 10 before or around age 10 to go elite. Boys do not. I believe this is because boys gymnastics has 6 events most of which are strength based. Most boys don't reach their full strength level until they are much older. Most men's Olympic gymnasts come FROM college teams. Most girl's Olympic gymnasts are Olympians BEFORE college. Both programs are incredibly difficult and I am not trying to say one program is harder than the other. However, I do feel like in WAG young girls are expected to be perfect at a much younger age and is perhaps why so many girls burn out. Just a guess, I don't think in either MAG or WAG there are a lot of Level 10's so its hard no matter how you look at it. Obviously I have a female gymnast. There are times I wish that WAG were more like MAG at least at the early years of development. But that is not the case. I can not imagine having to work on 6 events, 4 is hard enough and perhaps that is why girls have to be perfect, they only have 4 events?? I think we can all agree that gymnastics is just darn hard no matter men's or women's events.

 

[Cheryl]

They still goof off at meets at the higher levels, they just don’t roll around everywhere (well, maybe a little). It does seem less intense and more camaraderie exists. We were at a meet about a month ago, a boy slammed into the vault, it looked and sounded horrible. Kid cried a little picked himself up and redid his vault. When he finished, the whole crowd cheered and clapped.
MAG is also smaller, my son has been competing against the same group of kids for 5 years now, so even I know the names of boys from different gyms. The teams are also smaller, it’s rare for a gym to have more than 5 boys competing in one level at the optionals.

 

[JessSyd]

Surely anyone who has witnessed a kid slam into a vault would cheer when they made it over! Everyone cheers at girl‘s meets too (and we do not really cheer at meets in Australia, we clap quietly). I have seen it happen a few times and it’s just the most horrible thing. It is so impressive when a kid does that and then shakes it off and tries again.

 

[Aero]

I think it's a little of column A, a little of column B. Boys and girls are different, but not different enough to justify all the differences in how they tend to be treated. Some but not all of the differences are the result of how they are treated. A lot of the differences are self-reinforcing.

I 100% agree with this. There are emotional and physical differences between men and women, but we all still have consciousness and, therefore, humanity. Treatment of humans should be equal; there is no need to modify treatment of an individual based on their biological sex.

There’s a quote I really like that I heard once:
”Girls never think they are as good as they actually are. Boys always think they are better than they actually are.”

In my coaching, I aim to help girls realize what they are actually capable of, using gymnastics as the vessel for this goal.

 

[Geoffrey Taucer]

There’s a quote I really like that I heard once:
”Girls never think they are as good as they actually are. Boys always think they are better than they actually are.”

In my coaching, I aim to help girls realize what they are actually capable of, using gymnastics as the vessel for this goal.

This sums up my philosophy more succinctly than I've ever managed to. Can I share this elsewhere?

(I'd add that gymnastics also serves as an excellent vessel for boys to scratch that risk-seeking itch, while also getting a beneficial dose of humility)

 

[dancemom]

Our family recently saw a boys' meet for the first time, and OH MY GOODNESS was it different from a girls' meet! Everyone, including the judges, was friendly and relaxed.
*yes- the overall atmosphere is much different!

Nobody was timing falls or routines.
*Falls are always timed, but by the judge. He/she will give verbal warnings in 10 second increments. The gymnast has 30 seconds to resume his routine after a fall. The audience wouldn't be able to hear these warnings. The floor routine is timed, starting at the optional levels. Specific deductions are incurred for time over the max (70 seconds). In NCAA, a bell is rung at the 60 second warning and again at the 70 second ”end of routine” time.

There was no horrid compulsory music. The boys' compulsory routines looked more progressive than the girls': for example, L5, which I believe is around the equivalent of girls' L4, didn't vault over the table or even onto a mat--they just did a front tuck off the springboard. Why do we expect teeny tiny little girls to vault over the table, but not boys?
*Up through girls Lvl 6, the boys’ comparable skill equivalent is on level lower, or lvl 5 WAG= lvl 4 MAG. But boys’ routines, level 4-7, have 2-4 optional bonus skills/lvl (other than Vault), each adding +0.5 points to the Starting Value of the routine. These are skills that are compulsory in the next level up. So there are several variations of any routine in the same level.

Gyms also appear to be much more inclusive on the boys' side. In the L5 session I saw plenty of weak tumbling, horribly bent and separated legs, muscled-up kips, terrible body shapes, and flexed feet. And it was all WONDERFUL. If many of the boys in that session were girls, they would never have been allowed on team in the first place or would already have been driven out of the sport because they didn't have perfect form at age 8 or 9. But they are all getting the chance to learn and progress at their own pace.
*Boys definitely don't have the overall lovely legs/feet/toes that the girl's do, esp. in the younger age groups. But they do incur deductions by the judges for everything that you mentioned above.

Is boys' gymnastics just more fun and inclusive because there aren't as many boys interested in the sport, and gyms can't afford to be overly selective or apply ridiculous amounts of pressure the way they often do with girls? Or am I just having a "grass is greener on the other side" moment?

* Men’s gymnastics is about longevity. Girls peak in this sport much earlier. It’s important for girls to get the harder skills before puberty hits. Boys are waiting for puberty, which totally changes the sport for them. There are many skills in the Code of Points that junior men are Prohibited from competing. It’s a safety issue, esp with shoulder strength and flexibility. Look at the average age of the gymnasts at World’s and the Olympics. The Women tend to be as young as possible and the Men are mid 20s (exceptions exist, of course. But you won’t see a 16 yo boy on any Men’s Olympics team)