WAG Is this fair...or even really happening?

[vagymmomma]

Not saying some teams don't sandbag, but I don't think it's that common. I do think the longer you're in the sport, you'll learn things aren't always as they appear on the surface. This is hopefully a long term sport filled with all kinds of twists and turns. The skills keep getting harder and the risk of injury or fears is greater.


I don't know how I feel about mandated move ups. Maybe at the compulsory levels. Too many reasons not to move up at the optional with safety #1

 

[gracyomalley]

We are not in an area where ANY gyms really consistently train more than 20 hours a week, even at level 10. Few kids from our state go on to college gymnastics (although 2 from DD team have in the last 3 years). Most kids go a level a year with 1-2 times of repeating in their career, if they stay with it. Scores are rarely the reason for a repeat season (as it is rare for girls to not hit at least 34s in a level....). Common reasons are age, fear, a child's own wishes, or injury. Scores above 37 are few and far between in our region, likely due to the more laid back approach and rural nature of many of the involved states.

There are kids who in this system consistently are on the podium at every level, and kids who get a ribbon or 2 a year in their strong events. We certainly have kids who would dominate if competing down while training up....

Unfortunately, if a child is held back by fears they are rarely able to "train up" much....as otherwise they would be moving up, capiche??? DD has gotten stronger this year of repeating, and her fundamentals are more solid, but as far as up-training? Well, if she was ready mentally she'd be there physically...I do sometimes wonder why we are spending the money to compete a level she "already mastered" (although her high 35s last year might not be "mastering" to many)...especially since it puts a lot of pressure on the child to get every little thing "perfect" - in order to do better the second time around - and there are a FEW things you can do different in level 7 the second time around....

In any case, the take away is that unless you are at one of the gyms that trains many hours, competes down and trains up, and your child is one this works for, each meet is really about individual improvements for the girl - did that series go well?, landings stuck? fly away higher?, etc...scores and placements are just out of the kids hands - and this goes for smaller meets with fewer girls as well as large meets with more competition...

I'm glad in many ways we are in a low drama region....but I do know that the less hours and more laid back approach keeps some kids from reaching as far as they might - I think its a good balance for my pubertal 6th grader dealing with emotions and growing 6 inches a year for 2 years, though...and as her coaches are great, she'll come out of this with a great life experience whether its college gym and podiums( which she gets now as a repeater, but still worries about the few tenths she misses here and there...) or just a good way to spend her adolescence!

 

[Flossyduck]

I know a great deal of air time has been spent chewing over the differences between national systems, and I see many advantages to the US system, but here in the UK, once you have passed a level/grade you can't retake it. That makes sense to me. I would hate to have my dd compete the same level all over again a whole year later, just to score higher. I don't get that.

However, I would say that they are generally training a level or more beyond what they compete in our gym. That's normal and I don't see that as 'sandbagging'. The skills are getting harder and you need to start working on them a long way ahead of them being competition ready.

 

[rjb123]

As a parent I have had my share of "its not fair!" moments watching DD in gymnastics, especially this past year. Truly, she (well honestly NO ONE) had a shot at first or second in anything due to the girls that were out there. It was like the battle for third all. the. time. Ugh. "I" found it frustrating and felt like it was not "fair". DD, surprisingly, didn't think of it that way. She looked at it as an opportunity to strive to do better. And she believed that if she worked hard enough, and performed her absolute best, she could win first. And she did, one event, one meet. That meant more to her than anything in the world- I swear it gave her a boost that no amount of "easy" wins could have given her. It was also a big reality check for me that she was doing this sport for the joy of it, and her eyes were focused on more than just placements.
I am always telling my kids that "life isn't fair- a fair is a place to go and have fun!" I am working on remembering this in regards to gymnastics, and keeping my eyes focused on what is important: my DD loves it, is happy, and is learning how to win AND lose gracefully. You can't beat that!

 

[Aussie_coach]

It is totally fair, and this is the way coaches should be training their gymnasts.

When a gymnasts moves into level 4 for example they should already have all of their level 4 skills to a very solid standard and should be working level 5 skills.

It is not ideal to go into a competition and compete skills that you have only just learned. The aim is that you should have a skill down for at least 6 month before it is time to compete it.

A good gymnastics coach may have their students perfecting skills from their current level, mastering skills from 1 level up, learning skills from 2 levels up and doing drills and physical prep for skills 3 levels up.

 

[aksaunders]

My DD competed two years at the old L4. Her first meet she scored a 34.850 and she only scored 36 or better two times all season that first year. Her highest score of the year (37.100) was at the spring state meet. She averaged 35.600 for the first season so we didn't have a problem with her repeating the same level considering her age (very young) and the fact that she broke her arm that summer.

I have heard other parents talk about our gym because many young ladies repeated the old L4. In fact, one asked of my DD, "why is she competing 4 again when she won the spring state meet?" My response was that gymnastics is such an exercise in mental strength even at these young ages that repeating a year can't hurt. I didn't feel like I should have to explain that my kid had just turned 7 and had just finished rehabbing a compound fracture of her upper arm. I should have asked "how is it that you know my DD won the spring state meet?" Now, my DD scored much higher the second year as she was so much more confident than the previous meet season.

So to the OP, if a gym is trying to fill the trophy cases by having young ladies repeat some levels when they should move up, shame on them. If a gym is filling the trophy case as a by-product of making sure they produce physically strong and mentally tough young gymnasts, perhaps they are doing it the right way and more gyms should follow their lead.

 

[MerriWeather]

I have nothing to contribute other than as a new team parent, this has all been very eye-opening and does make me feel better about my Level 3 who hasn't yet been on the podium. Two of her teammates are repeats (one broke her arm, not sure why the other repeated) and my DD understands that is why they are much more polished and confident in competition. I never even considered that could be the case for the girls on other teams! *facepalm* Of course more hours, harder training and just more talent comes into play as well. I guess I have a lot to learn!

 

[raenndrops]

There are many many factors which determine which level a gymnast competes, I.e. Mentality, commitment, AGE , and mobility scores. DD competed in her first L5 meet, scored 37.295 AA, Trains level 7-9 skills, has giants, bhs series on beam, full twist on floor, but she isn't old enough to move up.

If she is old enough to compete L5, then she is old enough to compete L6 and L7.
The minimum age for L4-L7 is 7. L8 they have to be 8. She could compete L7 until she turns 8 given your information.

 

[skschlag]

I think it is hard to see kiddos that we *think* should be at a higher level, winning lower levels. HOwever, unless it is our gym, and our kid, we rarely know the full story. Coaches will often have a plan, that may not be communicated to everyone (or anyone for that matter). Is it fair? no. Is it fair that some kids work out 20 hours and others 10? No. Is it fair that some gyms cost too much? No. That is gymnastics. It is the wonderful sport our kiddos have chosen, and we support them in. It would be really easy to "put down" the gyms that win everything, call them sandbaggers, etc, but from what I have seen, it is usually just a difference in coaching style and philosophy.

 

[GYM0M]

If she is old enough to compete L5, then she is old enough to compete L6 and L7.
The minimum age for L4-L7 is 7. L8 they have to be 8. She could compete L7 until she turns 8 given your information.

You are right. I misread the chart thing on my phone. While she trains skills at this level, I don't think she would be ready to compete them. She's not a repeater for the sake of sweeping. She's progressed through the levels at a steady pace. However, we do have some girls that repeat even though they qualify for state. It's just a difficult thing to assess to know if it's done for the right reasons or for the sake of winning. I'm sure it happens though.

 

[gymparent22]

A few comments--sometimes kids compete at a lower level because they are missing one or two skills on one or two elements. Sometimes parents may not want kids to move up because it doesn't work with the schedule--moving up may mean an extra night, and more money, and parents may have good reason for putting that off a year. Kids are sometimes thinking about quitting entirely, and may not be as eager to go to a new level--and they probably will quit eventually, but that's true of most kids anyway. It's not like it's an easy road to level 10.

Another reason for kids to compete at a lower level again is that they really could have because they are young (immature), or perhaps their skill set changed over the season.

At some gyms, it's pretty common to move out of excel into level 2-4, and the difference in hours may encourage the coaches and the parents to choose the lower level (at our gym, coaches choose but I would assume if money and schedule were issues, parents have input....it's not like it's a character flaw to repeat a level, and most parents seem to want their kids to move up, anyway).

And sometimes I'd guess these decisions are made based on the availability of coaches and the number of kids.

And, I don't know of many gyms that just had state where the kids/parents know for sure what level their kid will be at, so I'm not sure how anyone can be sure that gyms are sandbagging. I'm sure there are gyms that literally have a cutoff point for moving up, but there are plenty of girls at other gyms who really do score 36-38 and really would struggle a lot at the next level, had they moved up.

I know of more gyms that get accused of sandbagging than gyms that actually sandbag. Sandbagging is entirely different than competing a level where a kid can score 36-39, but is at the same time training up. Sandbagging happens, but it's not the common explanation for teams that sweep the medals--and a glance at the scores pretty much can show that. And at meets, kids get broken down into small competitive groups by age, and the 6 year olds just can't be examples of sandbagging--and most of the older girls (downright elderly at some competitions) fall into one of the explanations above.

At some point, it boils down to an argument that it makes sense not to compete at these low levels--but the system is full of incentives to encourage routines and competition, and many parents are all in favor of it. But it's like any competition--I think the philosophy of a lot of people is to compete in the levels where one is fully prepared, and also work on getting to that point for the next level.

 

[gymparent22]

And the thing I like to point out to DD is not only does everyone have good days and bad days, and you just have to work hard and stay positive in life....is that a few days on a birthday could be 5th place or 1st place in a group, particularly at a large meet. Yeah, it's no fun to be the person with the bad luck to have a score that puts you in 5th, when in most other groups you would have been first or second....but it happens, and it is totally luck. That's why I tell my kids to focus on skills, and goals, and maybe on scores (but not even on really small differences in scores), but not on medals. I know it's hard to tell really young kids, though--it's just a lesson they learn.

 

[Deleted member 14190]

I was recently at a competition with my DD who competes L4, and got into discussion with a few of the moms about the "power gyms" who tend to do very well and tend to always have their kids up on the podium. One of the moms had heard a theory that there are gyms that have their kids compete a level down from the level they are training and capable of, so that they win. In other words, they are held back a year in competition, but not in the gym. Is this simply "uptraining", or a tactic that is unfair? Curious to know what you all think about this.

==
Level up training is mandatory if you want to progress in this sport. But repeating levels and not level up training is called a business plan,,, and an injustice to the kids...

 

[Faith]

I know a great deal of air time has been spent chewing over the differences between national systems, and I see many advantages to the US system, but here in the UK, once you have passed a level/grade you can't retake it. That makes sense to me. I would hate to have my dd compete the same level all over again a whole year later, just to score higher. I don't get that.

However, I would say that they are generally training a level or more beyond what they compete in our gym. That's normal and I don't see that as 'sandbagging'. The skills are getting harder and you need to start working on them a long way ahead of them being competition ready.

That's really only levels for compulsory girls though? Grades, I suppose, but I've seen kids training 24 hrs a week who are capable of flyways, kips, BHS on beam etc(so easily grade 8), doing grades 13 and 14. Regional comps where there are no move up marks, or if there are, they're set so only the top two *have* to move up, I've seen kids left in novice for years. Which is how some regions now have kids competing ridiculous skills at so called entry level "novice" (giants? BWOBHS beam series? Handspring full vaults?)

Uptraining fine, but I don't see how a kid should be competing level 4 at an invitational, then grade 13 a month later.

 

[Kit Kat]

That's really only levels for compulsory girls though? Grades, I suppose, but I've seen kids training 24 hrs a week who are capable of flyways, kips, BHS on beam etc(so easily grade 8), doing grades 13 and 14. Regional comps where there are no move up marks, or if there are, they're set so only the top two *have* to move up, I've seen kids left in novice for years. Which is how some regions now have kids competing ridiculous skills at so called entry level "novice" (giants? BWOBHS beam series? Handspring full vaults?)

Uptraining fine, but I don't see how a kid should be competing level 4 at an invitational, then grade 13 a month later.

I totally agree faith I think they should at least be allowed to take a higher british club grade if they previously competed the next grade or (in some cases a few grades up) skills very nicely the year before I am so glad my dd is at a club that competes other 4 piece comps as well.

 

[Gymdaddio]

Is it physically possible that everyone knows a team in the region, across town, or at the "power gym" that sandbags, yet no one is at one of these gyms and has said "Yes, our team sandbags and I hate it."

I'm quite certain we are one of those gyms that win often and get whispered about. Well actually I'm positively certain. People don't whisper quiet enough at meets.

Yet, in the meantime, my dd didn't even have full value on all events until State. Regionals are over and it is time to try to get ready for the next level. If we are fortunate enough that everyone gets their skills and do well at the next level, are we still sandbagging? Because I will hear it again. If the gymnastic stars don't align and we must repeat, surely that means that we are now sandbagging since the team had already found the podium often.

I'm just trying to say to be kind with your words, because I doubt you really know the true story if it's not your gym.

 

[LIGYMMOM]

Is it physically possible that everyone knows a team in the region, across town, or at the "power gym" that sandbags, yet no one is at one of these gyms and has said "Yes, our team sandbags and I hate it."

I'm quite certain we are one of those gyms that win often and get whispered about. Well actually I'm positively certain. People don't whisper quiet enough at meets.

Yet, in the meantime, my dd didn't even have full value on all events until State. Regionals are over and it is time to try to get ready for the next level. If we are fortunate enough that everyone gets their skills and do well at the next level, are we still sandbagging? Because I will hear it again. If the gymnastic stars don't align and we must repeat, surely that means that we are now sandbagging since the team had already found the podium often.

I'm just trying to say to be kind with your words, because I doubt you really know the true story if it's not your gym.

I'm sorry, I wasn't trying to be unkind, just trying to get different perspectives. Of course there are gyms who just have great coaching, put in the hours, and are very successful because of it. The gym I was thinking of when I posted this is very successful, and the mom I was talking to pulled her daughter from this gym because of the reason I posted about, and because she felt they were borderline abusive. One of dd's coaches also used to coach there, and verified. Since we have such a wide variety of gyms and perspectives on here, I was just curious if this type of gym is a rarity, or more common.
Uptraining is a wonderful thing! Our gym's philosophy is to place a gymnast at the level where they will be successful, but if a gymnast would be successful at the next level up, then it seems to me that is where he/she should compete. Again, no offense intended, just curiosity.

 

[Gymdaddio]

I'm sorry, I wasn't trying to be unkind, just trying to get different perspectives. Of course there are gyms who just have great coaching, put in the hours, and are very successful because of it. The gym I was thinking of when I posted this is very successful, and the mom I was talking to pulled her daughter from this gym because of the reason I posted about, and because she felt they were borderline abusive. One of dd's coaches also used to coach there, and verified. Since we have such a wide variety of gyms and perspectives on here, I was just curious if this type of gym is a rarity, or more common.
Uptraining is a wonderful thing! Our gym's philosophy is to place a gymnast at the level where they will be successful, but if a gymnast would be successful at the next level up, then it seems to me that is where he/she should compete. Again, no offense intended, just curiosity.

No apology needed. I just felt I needed to counter the sandbagging talk. So like you asked for, just offering my perspective.

 

[Faith]

Is it physically possible that everyone knows a team in the region, across town, or at the "power gym" that sandbags, yet no one is at one of these gyms and has said "Yes, our team sandbags and I hate it."

I hate it.

We were at a gym that kind of sandbagged, although it's different here in the UK as we have no compulsories as such. Kids would be training 18-20 hours a week, but not really progressing as they'd like as they'd be stuck in a level until they won (when they got the compulsory move up score). Ok so they maybe only had skills for a level up, (but the potential for more) but they'd spend hours polishing and polishing the lower level skills until they were forced to move up a level.

Having said that, it does depend on the child. Some of DD's teammates like to be rock solid on skills before they move on to harder ones, so leaving them in a lower level until they rock it works for them. Others shine when they hit the harder stuff, so moving them up once they have the skills is better for them.

There's another place which is known for its sandbagging. However, it works against them. They're seen as *the* club to be at for the lower levels- the basics are there, technique is excellent, they win a lot. However, they don't move kids up to elite, even if they're capable, unless they think they'll make national squad. So most kids who want to compete junior elite/elite switch clubs- which leaves them with no potential elite kids, which leaves them with the reputation that they can't make the jump to that level.

Me personally, thinks it's actually less competitive the higher up you go. Why compete against 40 novice kids, when you can compete the same skills in intermediate where there's a field of 12. Or advanced against 6 other kids… My kid would rather come 6th in advanced than podium at novice, but maybe that's just her...

 

[Flossyduck]

I totally agree faith I think they should at least be allowed to take a higher british club grade if they previously competed the next grade or (in some cases a few grades up) skills very nicely the year before I am so glad my dd is at a club that competes other 4 piece comps as well.

That's really only levels for compulsory girls though? Grades, I suppose, but I've seen kids training 24 hrs a week who are capable of flyways, kips, BHS on beam etc(so easily grade 8), doing grades 13 and 14. Regional comps where there are no move up marks, or if there are, they're set so only the top two *have* to move up, I've seen kids left in novice for years. Which is how some regions now have kids competing ridiculous skills at so called entry level "novice" (giants? BWOBHS beam series? Handspring full vaults?)

Uptraining fine, but I don't see how a kid should be competing level 4 at an invitational, then grade 13 a month later.

I agree with all of that. My post was really just saying that I like the fact you can't repeat a grade in this country if you have passed it and that's a good thing. You could never spend three years competing grade 13 just to look good for the team...

If girls are being held back to compete lower grades than they are capable of, then that's a whole different argument. I don't agree with that. I've heard it argued that it's better for girls to medal than struggle, but on the basis you an never guarantee a medal and girls may end up quitting before they ever get to show the world what they can do, then that's rubbish!

I don't really know if our club does that, but if it does, we're talking a grade and a couple of skills maybe... nothing like that you have experienced which sucks!