Is training for Hopes helpful to Level 9

[Muddlethru]

Or is it its own discipline? My daughter is attending a camp that has many national staff coaches and provides training for aspiring elites, Hopes and Tops gymnasts but provides training for other levels as well. Upon registering, they ask what the gymnast would like to train for. So, I put Level 9, since that is the level she is going to be next season. Her coach told me to change it to Hopes. Now, I don't know if going elite is something my daughter wants to do or even can do or if we as per parents can help her do. I am more interested in the here and now. How do the Hopes skills compare to Level 9 skills (i.e., harder, easier, complimentary, can cauuse confusion). I want her to do well as a level 9. I don't think I want her to do any Hopes training unless it will help her current season. Any insight or recommendations? What are your thoughts on Hopes? I feel passing through Hopes is unecessary even if you want to go elite. What is its value?

 

[Deleted member D3987]

it's a camp. do what the coach told you and put her in as Hopes. that's the "here and now".

 

[Muddlethru]

Thanks for your suggestion dunno. Though I respect your suggestion, I was also hoping to get more information on Hopes. Does anyone know how and if Hopes training helps or complements a particular level. For instance, we all know how Tops helps the gymnast. One aspect is strenght building and the skills part is mostly L8 and L9 skills. In addition, this camp my daughter is going to allows gymnasts to bring a coach. In fact, I was told by my daughter's coach that she is the only one going without a coach. The camp organizers say it is perfectly fine for my daughter to be without her coach. However, I thought putting her in Hopes without a coach who knows what she can or cannot do may be a problem. She is just starting to train level 9. She may be afraid to do new skills without her trusted coach to be around.

 

[JessLW]

It is my understanding that Hopes is like pre-pre-elite. You have to qualify to Hopes and there are Hopes competitions at some of the big meets (I think the Secret Classic had Hopes?). It is definitely for kids who are on that track and I think it is meant to be a sort of stepping stone for those kids who have reached high levels very young, but who aren't quite old enough (or ready with the skills) for actual Jr. elite. It will also get them used to FIG scoring and routines so that the transition isn't as hard later on.

Maybe your daughter's coaches see her training Hopes at the camp as sort of a trial run, to see if she can keep up or has the interest for elite. Or, perhaps your daughter's coaches think she'll get better/more serious instruction in the Hopes group. It is also possible (as your daughter is a fairly young level 9, right? She'd have to be for Hopes) that most of the other level 9s will be quite a bit older and the Hopes kids will be more her equals in age as well as level.

I'd just straight up ask your daughter's coach why he said to put her in Hopes and if that's the direction he sees her headed, or if he had other reasons.

 

[Deleted member D3987]

Thanks for your suggestion dunno. Though I respect your suggestion, I was also hoping to get more information on Hopes. Does anyone know how and if Hopes training helps or complements a particular level. For instance, we all know how Tops helps the gymnast. One aspect is strenght building and the skills part is mostly L8 and L9 skills. In addition, this camp my daughter is going to allows gymnasts to bring a coach. In fact, I was told by my daughter's coach that she is the only one going without a coach. The camp organizers say it is perfectly fine for my daughter to be without her coach. However, I thought putting her in Hopes without a coach who knows what she can or cannot do may be a problem. She is just starting to train level 9. She may be afraid to do new skills without her trusted coach to be around.

Hopes is pre-elite. maybe the coach is doing this so she doesn't get pigeon holed in to a lesser group. doesn't sound like it has anything to do with where she will compete. only about where to place her for camp. if she gets in the wrong group she might get bored to death. understand??

 

[LemonLime]

The skill set for L9 and for Hopes is highly similar except for bars and - even there - the skill sets are complimentary. Broken down . . .

Vault. Many Hopes do pike yurchenkos and a layout is preferred (just like in L9).

Beam. Bhs/bhs works for L9, but you need a salto series for Hopes (many top L9 do a salto series). Hopes need a C dismount (1.5, but a B dismount is only a .3 difference) while L9 need a B dismount (full). Hopes needs one D FWD or side acro, while this is extra for composition at L9. Both need 180 jumps/leaps and a switch connection that works at L9 for bonus would be used well at L9 so long as it's a skill that is in the FIG code (like a split jump or sissone but not a tuck jump).

Fx. Hopes requires a double tuck which is extra for composition at L9. Hopes requires at least a full which many L9 already compete. The leap series must be connected at L9 while it may be indirect at Hopes. L9 requires a B dismount, while Hopes requires a C (but it's only a .3 difference if you do a B).

Bars. L9 requires the same bar changes, but Hopes requires 2 releases instead of one. For instance, a hopes gymnast will do shootover/uphill, while a L9 gymnast may do shootover/squat on. In order to earn your hopes optional score, you must also earn your hopes compulsory score. Hopes and elite compulsories require the dreaded blind/front giant which usually separates successful hopes testers from those who miss. Most hopes gymnasts do a double tuck dismount although the first upgrade you generally see is a new bar dismount once they have their requirements.

Having said all that, there are many different levels of hopes now! There is no more pre-elite and only two age-levels of Hopes which presumedly will have different score minimums. I would expect a 9yo Hopes gymnast who is turning 10 to have a very different skill set than a just-turned 13yo Hopes gymnast.

 

[LemonLime]

Also, Hopes is not a miniature level of Elite. It has different requirements plus the lower score. The "old" Pre-Elite level WAS miniature Elite. It had exactly the same requirements but allowed for a lower score. Most gymnasts who successfully
earned a Pre Elite score DID make elite in the following 2 years. However, most gymnasts who earn the Hopes score do not make elite. I think the number is around 40%.

 

[Muddlethru]

Lemonlime thank you so much for that detailed reply! That was what I was hoping to find out.

It is so hard to speak with our coaches since they are always on the floor coaching whenI drop my daughter off or pick her up. Communication at our gym is a little problematic. So, your response is certainly most helpful. I am not very versed in the names of the skills but from reading the above post, it seems like with the exception of full requirement in floor, the Hopes requirements are a llittle higher than Level 9. The HC said since she did TOPS, she did many of the skills. On vault she is just training pike yurchenkos. On floor, she is training bhs, back layout step out on beam and front tucks. She can do her front aerial and side aerial consistently. She has all the leaps quite well, but she has not learned C dismounts on beam. On floor, she just landed her first double back yesterday. So, she is still training/learning this skill. She has a few leap series under her belt but I don't understand what the C dismount on floor would be. On bars, she can do front giants and blind changes but not consistently. But she has not trained any major releases. She is doing double tucks dismount. So it looks like she may be close to doing either hopes or Level 9. But I do see what you are saying about different levels. TOPS had the same thing. There were those proficient in the skills and some just barely doing it. I think she may be fine in wherever they put her in. I did not want her I over her head especially without her coach there. Thank you again lemonlime. Your response was very helpful.

 

[Muddlethru]

Also, Hopes is not a miniature level of Elite. It has different requirements plus the lower score. The "old" Pre-Elite level WAS miniature Elite. It had exactly the same requirements but allowed for a lower score. Most gymnasts who successfully
earned a Pre Elite score DID make elite in the following 2 years. However, most gymnasts who earn the Hopes score do not make elite. I think the number is around 40%.

Correct me if I am wrong, it seems like by-passing Hopes may be the preferred method. I am not even thinking elite at all. I just want my daughter to be a successful level 10 eventually. But just to comment on the post above, the statistics seem to indicate doing away with all the unnecessary "frills" so to speak. If elite is the goal, then go straight to elite. After all, the fastest way from point a to point b is a straight line. Of course, there can be several arguments to the contrary (i.e., fastest does not always mean better, etc.) and situations vary.

 

[LemonLime]

The top gymnasts at L9 Jr. A at Easterns and Westerns and the top gymnasts at L10 Jr. A have a very, very high correlation to qualifying elite. More so than Hopes gymnasts. Bypassing optional levels for Hopes/Pre Elite generally isn't recommended although a small number of coaches try it.

Thinking about those gymnasts in line for the Olympic team this week at trials . . . Jordyn Weiber was 2nd in Jr. A L10 at JO Nationals, Kyla Ross won Westerns and Jo Nationals, McKayla Maroney was 4th at Westerns and won vault at JO nationals, Aly Raisman was 3rd at Easterns, Sarah Finnegan was top 10 at Westerns and JO Nationals (twice). I think perhaps as high as 100% of the gymnasts competing at trials competed at JO Nationals or at least Nationals or Westerns/Easterns?? I haven't run through the entire list.

For younger, top gymnasts . . . Bailie Key was 2nd at Westerns as a nine year old, Madison Kocian won Westerns and made national team a few months later, Katelyn Ohashi won Westerns and was top 5 at JO nationals after a fall, Lexie Preissman won Easterns, Simone Biles won fx at JO nationals and competed at that meet for a couple years, Nia Dennis was on JO national team and Amelia Hundley was top 10 at JO nationals as a 10 year old.

The progression, competition, pressure and exposure of JO meets is great training for any gymnast. It's up to the coach to pick the correct pacing for each gymnast, but surely the JO program complements training for international elite.

 

[Deleted member D3987]

well stated. ^^^