WAG Level 3 with Sudden Round-Off BHS Fear?

[CoachMeg]

Just a question for other coaches or parents of gymnasts with fear issues.

I have a new level 3 (8 years old) with loads of potential. But suddenly she had developed a fear for her back-handspring: both standing and connected to a round-off. She was doing it all summer and early fall, and then one week she started not going for it when we would tumble. She would just do a round-off and stop when we were corner tumbling and I would have to get on her case about going. Like I said, it was totally out of the blue. Then one day about 4 weeks ago, she was going for her round-off back handspring and bailed mid-way through and pretty much rebounded out of her round-off and landed on her back and then did a back-roll out of it. She was fine, but it completely freaked her out. Before she left I made her do 2 more with spot before she left the floor so that she wouldn't end on a bad note. She did them with spot with no complaints.

Well fast-forward to today and she still will not go for it by herself. Not even on trampoline or into our in-ground resi-pit. She's perfectly capable and when she does do it, it's gorgeous. It's unfortunate because her VERY first meet two weekends ago she scored 9.4 bars, 9.45 beam, 9.3 vault....and then had to scratch floor.

She's a very competitive kid and after the meet she even said how she wanted to be in the AA. However, she still refuses to go. When we're at floor she just cries and won't even attempt it. I do not yell at her or ever threaten conditioning or anything like that...she cries because she's disappointed in herself and you can tell she really wants to do it. I can tell she's scared because she starts fidgeting and her face gets pale at just the mention of back-handsprings. The problem is HC has told me he does not want me spotting her...he thinks that if I spot her because she's scared then it will travel to other events and she'll develop fears elsewhere too. I don't necessarily agree with his approach...I think spotting her through this could give her more confidence. BUT, unfortunately I'm not the HC.

Soon....thoughts on how to combat this DURING meet season without spotting? I can give her endless drills but I really just don't know how much that will help her. When she does it, it's gorgeous. The problem is that she just has to commit to it. I'm going to have to pull her from floor again this weekend and it saddens me because her other events look phenomenal.

Any advice?

 

[CoachMeg]

Also, I'm aware this is most likely a vestibular issue. Especially because of how sudden this fear has come on (even though she does not have any other fears on any other events and isn't even scared of any other tumbling element - including other back-tumbling skills...just back-handsprings).

My question is not "What is this fear?" it's "How can I help her?". Do I just completely back away and let her build back up her confidence? However, if I take this approach, she will most likely be scratching floor the rest of the season and therefore not going to state. OR, should I continue to push her to work through it. The problem with that approach is that HC is against spotting her - even though I don't necessarily agree with him, I don't want to ignore his request.

 

[raenndrops]

What about letting her compete floor without it? If she is as good as she sounds, she could still score mid to high 8s without it.

We had an 8 year old last year on our team that went thru something similar with the bhs.
The coaches backed off and had her compete without it. Being the competitive type, she decided that her desire to score well outweighed the fear. It only took two meets of not winning floor.

BTW, she is now competing L4 with her 2bhs

 

[Deleted member 14190]

well... listen to your head coach first. And what Raindrops said is the proper way to deal with it, (in other words, do not spot and just stop working them all together.) Although Vestibular is always a debatable issue,,, I do not always agree that the problems is just that. Regardless of the problem the cure is the same... But rooting out the cause is also part of the cure if possible .
So answer me this before we go on.
1). Is her family life okay? might want to check.
2). Is she under a lot of pressure , or did she move up rapidly?
3). Do her parents watch workout often?

 

[Deleted member 17723]

I agree with letting her try floor without it, if that is okay with your gym. My teammate got high 8s - low 9s with non connected back handsprings, so I am sure she could still score very well. And she competes all around. I had a small flare up of that as well - and my coaches backing off really helped me. And hearing them tell me that I could do it and to try it. They backed off for a week, and without the pressure I managed to do it. Maybe back off?

 

[CoachMeg]

@coachp
1. Family life seems to be okay from what I can tell.
2. She only spent around 3 months on pre-team....so pretty rapidly compared to our other girls that spend about a 1 year in the pre-team program. We discovered her later.
3. Parents rarely, if ever watch her work out. Although they do come inside the gym to pick her up and the mom always asks how floor goes. She always seems pretty mad, not at us, but at her daughter. She told us (last night) that next time when we're on floor if she doesn't go for it within the first few tries to just sit her out or have her call home. Her daughter just cries at this saying she wants to stay at practice.

Also, this is some other BIG information....her mom talked to us about a week ago and told us (this was completely new to all of us coaches...they had never mentioned any of this previously) that before her daughter had come over to us to try gymnastics, she was at a power tumbling gym about 15 minutes away from us. She said that when she was 7 over there, they put her on the team to compete a back-handspring pass but then she suddenly stopped doing it one practice also. The parents got irritated and annoyed so they took her out after a couple months. Her mom said the daughter "REALLY" wanted to do gymnastics so they put her in, but when she suddenly got moved up to pre-team, the mom told her daughter that if she has any more issues with her tumbling that they're going to pull her...that she's not going to repeat what happened at the other place. (That's what the mom told us)

She was doing them fine and we cleaned her up a bit and now here we are....suddenly out of nowhere this fear. And of course it happened RIGHT BEFORE the first meet. Ugh.

 

[CoachMeg]

What about letting her compete floor without it? If she is as good as she sounds, she could still score mid to high 8s without it.

We had an 8 year old last year on our team that went thru something similar with the bhs.
The coaches backed off and had her compete without it. Being the competitive type, she decided that her desire to score well outweighed the fear. It only took two meets of not winning floor.

BTW, she is now competing L4 with her 2bhs

I really don't want to compete her without a back-handspring for a couple reasons....

1) The deduction for that is roughly 1.2 for omitting a skill (double the value of a skill and a back-handspring is worth 0.6). Therefore the HIGHEST possible score she would score would be a 8.8 and that is if everything else is perfect- which it's not.

2) Our gym has a pretty strict policy that if you don't have all your skills, you don't compete that event. So if we let HER compete floor without a back-handspring, we'll have to let the 3 other girls compete their event that are scratching because they don't have their skills.

3) I haven't let her do a routine in several weeks because I feel that if she starts doing routines and continuously stops after her round-off....she's going to become immune to it. Almost like forming a habit of stopping - or aiding to the habit of stopping. I think sending her out at a meet will just escalate that.

 

[lhmom]

I will be blunt- her mom needs to be told in the nicest way to stop addressing the issue with her child. I have seen time and time again with other girls in DD's gym that if the parents show frustration or anxiety about the missing skill, it just increases the kid's anxiety. I watched a very talented little girl at DD's gym never get over her fear of the ROBHS because her mom's reaction (mom stayed anxious and expressed it constantly). I learned early on to keep mouth firmly shut or give encouragement when DD struggled or lost a skill.

 

[Deleted member 14190]

@coachp
1. Family life seems to be okay from what I can tell.
2. She only spent around 3 months on pre-team....so pretty rapidly compared to our other girls that spend about a 1 year in the pre-team program. We discovered her later.
3. Parents rarely, if ever watch her work out. Although they do come inside the gym to pick her up and the mom always asks how floor goes. She always seems pretty mad, not at us, but at her daughter. She told us (last night) that next time when we're on floor if she doesn't go for it within the first few tries to just sit her out or have her call home. Her daughter just cries at this saying she wants to stay at practice.

Also, this is some other BIG information....her mom talked to us about a week ago and told us (this was completely new to all of us coaches...they had never mentioned any of this previously) that before her daughter had come over to us to try gymnastics, she was at a power tumbling gym about 15 minutes away from us. She said that when she was 7 over there, they put her on the team to compete a back-handspring pass but then she suddenly stopped doing it one practice also. The parents got irritated and annoyed so they took her out after a couple months. Her mom said the daughter "REALLY" wanted to do gymnastics so they put her in, but when she suddenly got moved up to pre-team, the mom told her daughter that if she has any more issues with her tumbling that they're going to pull her...that she's not going to repeat what happened at the other place. (That's what the mom told us)

She was doing them fine and we cleaned her up a bit and now here we are....suddenly out of nowhere this fear. And of course it happened RIGHT BEFORE the first meet. Ugh.

==
ah,,,, well there you have it. Parents don't understand what is happening, problem is already there (who knows what started it) , and simply put,,,, the damage is DONE,,,, and now consequences are set,,,, = failure.... At this point you are fighting an uphill battle, so just back off and see what happens. In the mean time someone needs to educate the parents about pressure and anxiety = cementing fear issues... In other words they are making it worse. So again, focus on the other kids and give this kid space.

 

[Deleted member 14190]

I really don't want to compete her without a back-handspring for a couple reasons....

1) The deduction for that is roughly 1.2 for omitting a skill (double the value of a skill and a back-handspring is worth 0.6). Therefore the HIGHEST possible score she would score would be a 8.8 and that is if everything else is perfect- which it's not.

2) Our gym has a pretty strict policy that if you don't have all your skills, you don't compete that event. So if we let HER compete floor without a back-handspring, we'll have to let the 3 other girls compete their event that are scratching because they don't have their skills.

3) I haven't let her do a routine in several weeks because I feel that if she starts doing routines and continuously stops after her round-off....she's going to become immune to it. Almost like forming a habit of stopping - or aiding to the habit of stopping. I think sending her out at a meet will just escalate that.

yes, stick to your policy and tell this kid that she is scratching floor up front. Parents will probably pitch a fit, (they are part of the problem), but who cares... Here today gone tomorrow.

 

[gymdog]

Also, this is some other BIG information....her mom talked to us about a week ago and told us (this was completely new to all of us coaches...they had never mentioned any of this previously) that before her daughter had come over to us to try gymnastics, she was at a power tumbling gym about 15 minutes away from us. She said that when she was 7 over there, they put her on the team to compete a back-handspring pass but then she suddenly stopped doing it one practice also. The parents got irritated and annoyed so they took her out after a couple months. Her mom said the daughter "REALLY" wanted to do gymnastics so they put her in, but when she suddenly got moved up to pre-team, the mom told her daughter that if she has any more issues with her tumbling that they're going to pull her...that she's not going to repeat what happened at the other place. (That's what the mom told us)

She was doing them fine and we cleaned her up a bit and now here we are....suddenly out of nowhere this fear. And of course it happened RIGHT BEFORE the first meet. Ugh.

Wow! I am so sad for this child. She can NOT do the back handsprings or she would do it. No one should be getting on her case at all, ever. Imagine as a child carrying this burden. That is terrible. I realize it is difficult to address this sort of thing but your coaching team has to try. The parents need to understand that is VERY common and unavoidable. If she continues in gymnastics then this WILL HAPPEN. If they truly don't get it, I say invite them in for an adult class and let them really get what it feels like to have your body not be able to do something. Gymnastics is one of the hardest things these kids will do in their life and a lot of the parents truly don't get it. They just think these things can be taught and done at whim.

As far as how I would handle it, how's her standing back handspring? My kids do standing back handsprings then standing two back handsprings on tramp while they work through this. If they aren't ready for that, we use a barrel.

 

[raenndrops]

I really don't want to compete her without a back-handspring for a couple reasons....

1) The deduction for that is roughly 1.2 for omitting a skill (double the value of a skill and a back-handspring is worth 0.6). Therefore the HIGHEST possible score she would score would be a 8.8 and that is if everything else is perfect- which it's not.

2) Our gym has a pretty strict policy that if you don't have all your skills, you don't compete that event. So if we let HER compete floor without a back-handspring, we'll have to let the 3 other girls compete their event that are scratching because they don't have their skills.

3) I haven't let her do a routine in several weeks because I feel that if she starts doing routines and continuously stops after her round-off....she's going to become immune to it. Almost like forming a habit of stopping - or aiding to the habit of stopping. I think sending her out at a meet will just escalate that.

I definitely agree with not competing her based on #2. Stick to the gym policy. Our gym policy is they can compete with 1 missing skill as long as they can compete safely.

If it weren't for #2, I would take issue with #1 though. I know that a mid to high 8 would be the max she could score. But it might put her in the hunt for AA and could qualify her for State.
You had said you were worried about her qualifying for States. If her other events are in the 9s, then qualifying for states (at most from what I have seen about qualifying scores on here) would only require a max of a 7.

And, as far as #3, I have not seen this as the case in my experience at least.

 

[duyetanh]

I think that just sucks about those parents. So many children lose that darn robhs, heck, my child sure did. Cue the Frozen music, "Let it go, let it go..."

 

[cadybearsmommy]

This exact thing happened to my dd, she developed her fear after some teammates at her old gym were being critical of her ROBHS (saying it was sloppy, she was going to break her neck, etc.) All of a sudden she would not throw it, this was the summer before she was to compete L3. At first I pushed her, scheduled private lessons, etc, pressured her. When I came here to vent I learned very quickly that was a mistake. Someone told me to treat it like an injury and let it heal (b/c it really is, it's a mental injury) and that was the best advice we ever got. We backed off of her, stopped mentioning it. Her coaches didn't say a word when she wouldn't throw it in practice. She ended up moving to Xcel Bronze instead for the year so she wouldn't be required to compete it. It was a good decision for her b/c little did we know her other skills weren't competition ready either. She had serious form issues. Now that doesn't sound like the case with your student if she is scoring that well in other events. So you can continue to scratch her from floor, or you can possibly move her to an Xcel program for the year that has more flexible requirements, but whatever you do, I would eliminate all focus on the back handspring at practice at least for a few weeks. Give her the option to try it if she wants but don't push her. And I would also have a conversation with her parents and let them know this is normal, it happens and this won't be the last time, and that threatening to pull her out over a completely normal fear will not make her get it back any faster.

For my dd, it took being in a new environment (new gym) without the mean girls around watching her and making comments to be able to throw her BHS again. She lost it for nearly an entire year. At the new gym, she threw it in her very first practice. It doesn't sound like the gym is the issue with your student, she obviously has a coach that is looking out for her best interests but I would bet money that the pressure from her parents and threatening to pull her out is a HUGE factor in all of this.

 

[duyetanh]

This exact thing happened to my dd, she developed her fear after some teammates at her old gym were being critical of her ROBHS (saying it was sloppy, she was going to break her neck, etc.) All of a sudden she would not throw it, this was the summer before she was to compete L3. At first I pushed her, scheduled private lessons, etc, pressured her. When I came here to vent I learned very quickly that was a mistake. Someone told me to treat it like an injury and let it heal (b/c it really is, it's a mental injury) and that was the best advice we ever got. We backed off of her, stopped mentioning it. Her coaches didn't say a word when she wouldn't throw it in practice. She ended up moving to Xcel Bronze instead for the year so she wouldn't be required to compete it. It was a good decision for her b/c little did we know her other skills weren't competition ready either. She had serious form issues. Now that doesn't sound like the case with your student if she is scoring that well in other events. So you can continue to scratch her from floor, or you can possibly move her to an Xcel program for the year that has more flexible requirements, but whatever you do, I would eliminate all focus on the back handspring at practice at least for a few weeks. Give her the option to try it if she wants but don't push her. And I would also have a conversation with her parents and let them know this is normal, it happens and this won't be the last time, and that threatening to pull her out over a completely normal fear will not make her get it back any faster.

For my dd, it took being in a new environment (new gym) without the mean girls around watching her and making comments to be able to throw her BHS again. She lost it for nearly an entire year. At the new gym, she threw it in her very first practice. It doesn't sound like the gym is the issue with your student, she obviously has a coach that is looking out for her best interests but I would bet money that the pressure from her parents and threatening to pull her out is a HUGE factor in all of this.

Yep. Unfortunately, there seems to be a pattern with this child's parents and their pressure with this skill...and sadly it is doubtful it will change unless the parents get a clue.

 

[CoachMeg]

Yeah.....I guess there really isn't a "magic" answer. We don't have an excel program in our gym...only JO, so that option is out unless she switches gyms, which is doubtful. The parents are really nice people and I think my statement above kind of brought on the wrong interpretation of how they act. They never say anything in front of their daughter about her fear....well, maybe at home they do but they never do at the gym. As soon as she approaches we both stop talking about it. I think they're more frustrated because they have put so much money into in and we have sent in all the meet fees and she may only be competing 3 events this year...and because of that she will probably have to repeat level 3 next year. I think it's more frustration than anger, and I understand it to a point. I agree they should "let it go", but it's also hard when you're investing money and from what I understand they have several kids in different competitive sports so I'm sure it gets expensive.

I don't know...maybe that's just my frustration talking too.

 

[CoachMeg]

As far as how I would handle it, how's her standing back handspring? My kids do standing back handsprings then standing two back handsprings on tramp while they work through this. If they aren't ready for that, we use a barrel.

She will not do a standing back-handspring by herself, even though she's perfectly capable. If I put my hand on her back she will go and she will go right over my hand. She knows I'm not spotting, but the moment I step even two feet away, she will not go for it. And the problem is that I have 10 other level 3s in that group that need my attention also. I can't give her a 1-on-1 private in the middle of practice just because she's fearful and the rest are not. Plus, HC does not agree with spotting when it comes to fears, unless it's a safety thing (for ex: flyaway). But as far as tumbling, his views are if they're capable of doing it, but they are fearful, they can do it into the in-ground resi or on the tumble trak or trampoline. Problem is she won't do any of that. If I send her over to the trampoline or in-ground resi to do 5 (just 5) standing back-handsprings she'll just stand there the entire time.

I don't think a barrel will help in her case. She will go with spot, or even with me putting my hand out and not spotting. Her issue is doing it knowing I'm standing away from her and not spotting. I could spot her on a million ro-bhs and she'll do them fine, but the moment I step away she just cries. Also, I think barrels do most of the work for them...they really only have to put minimal effort in. It's great for rec kids but not really for team kids. I'm sure she'd go for it, since the barrel would do the entire thing for her...but unless I watch her every single turn (impossible), she will probably just form bad habits by becoming to dependent on it. It doesn't really teach you anything, it's more just to fling you through the skill and help kids (mainly rec) understand how to go through the motions of a back-handspring. I can't see it having any benefits for a team kid.

 

[gymdog]

Yeah.....I guess there really isn't a "magic" answer. We don't have an excel program in our gym...only JO, so that option is out unless she switches gyms, which is doubtful. The parents are really nice people and I think my statement above kind of brought on the wrong interpretation of how they act. They never say anything in front of their daughter about her fear....well, maybe at home they do but they never do at the gym. As soon as she approaches we both stop talking about it. I think they're more frustrated because they have put so much money into in and we have sent in all the meet fees and she may only be competing 3 events this year...and because of that she will probably have to repeat level 3 next year. I think it's more frustration than anger, and I understand it to a point. I agree they should "let it go", but it's also hard when you're investing money and from what I understand they have several kids in different competitive sports so I'm sure it gets expensive.

I don't know...maybe that's just my frustration talking too.

No, really, it isn't THAT hard. I had a gymnast in the same situation a few months ago and her mom just told her she was proud of her and always was. Fast forward a few months and she is competing the RO BHS just fine. If the parents will not let her do gymnastics if she has fears they should pull her right now, this second. Because if they can't handle this stuff, what they want is impossible in gymnastics disciplines. They should go to a sport like soccer or basketball. I'm not being sarcastic, this would be the right thing to do and should be part of the education for the parents to decide what to do.

And if they never say it in front of her, even then, kids can usually tell. But in your post you described specific situations where they told the child she has to do it or else basically to the point the child is in tears so I don't know about that. It seems doubtful this child would intentionally not do the bhs if she was able to. But it's 100% certain that the way it's being handled right now causes emotional damage, decreases her self image, and makes the problem worse. She doesn't understand what's going on, just that she can't make herself do it. The dichotomy the parents have set up (seemingly with the help of the coaches reporting to them constantly) basically makes her feel she is "bad" for not doing something she CAN'T help. How can this not damage a child? If you're frustrated, put yourself in this child's shoes.

I'm not trying to blame you either, so I hope you read this as its intended, to help this child and explain why the parents need to be educated.

 

[gymdog]

And as to your second post, if she can't do a standing back handspring, she should not be attempting a roundoff back handspring. She won't get it. You need to use drills like jump backs, going over the barrel, and using the trampoline. It WILL help by building self confidence and teaching the process of conquering a fear and problem solving. This is the way ALL gymnastics is learned and is a major life lesson. It is wrong to say a child is "perfectly capable" of doing something they can't yet do and then saying a progression (such as doing it over the barrel) won't help them. It will help her, because she isn't capable of doing it, because she can't.

 

[CoachMeg]

The dichotomy the parents have set up (seemingly with the help of the coaches reporting to them constantly)

I understand what you're saying about the parents and them wanting to pull her, but I'm not sure why you're attacking me about it. I am confronting the mother about the situation to A) tell her that her child will not be competing floor at the meet. How can I tell her that without explaining the fear situation? Obviously the parents want her to compete floor so after practice they will occasionally (not always) ask me how floor went. and B) to help me get insight on how this fear has started and how I can try and fix it. I don't think there's anything wrong with talking to the parents about this, especially DURING meet season.

Secondly, I never said she COULDN'T do a standing back-handspring, I said she wouldn't by herself. She has probably the best standing back-handsprings in the entire level 3 group and was doing them all the time during the summer (I make all my kids have a standing bhs 100% by themselves on the actual floor before connecting it to anything). But out of the blue a couple weeks ago she just stopped going for anything bhs related, whether it's standing or connected with a round-off. I never said I don't do drills...I still have all of my kids do bhs drills every single floor practice. But it's just not helping her. She will go through all the drills, it's just as soon as she tries to put it all together she freezes up and won't go.

I still do not think a barrel is the right tool in this situation. Also because most of our barrels are smaller and made for rec kids - with her power and her ability to actually jump, I don't think it would even be an appropriate size for her. Jumping drills, snap-down drills, all of those DRILLS are things we are doing. I just don't think a barrel is right for team kids, especially those that already have back-handsprings. She still HAS her back-handspring. She hasn't lost the physical ability to do it, she just mentality will not go for it.