Mandatory Moving Up Scores??

[Honey]

Has anyone heard about Gymnastics Ontario implementing move up scores? Meaning, if a gymnast has an average score from the qualifiers and/or at provincials that is above a certain threshold then they must move up to the next level?

 

[raenndrops]

I actually LIKE that idea, as long as it is set high enough.
In our State, the YMCA teams HAD Mandate scores up until Y Nationals 2014, when they had a meeting. Our state sends the most gyms and the most gymnasts every year to Y Nationals, but we are lucky to get 20% of the medals.
Reasons:
1 - Our Mandate scores were set way too low-
(L3 = 33.0 2x with at least an 8.25 on each event in the SAME meets as the 33.0 were achieved.
L4 = 34.0 2x with at least an 8.00 on each event in the SAME meets as the 34.0 were achieved.
L5 = 33.0 2x with at least an 7.75 on each event in the SAME meets as the 33.0 were achieved.
L6 = not a required level, but IF you did it 34.0 2x with at least an 8.00 on each event in the SAME meets as the 34.0 were achieved.
L7 = 34.0 2x with at least an 8.00 on each event in the SAME meets as the 34.0 were achieved.
L8 = 34.0 2x with at least an 7.75 on each event in the SAME meets as the 34.0 were achieved.
L9 = The highest we compete, so no mandate score.
Xcel Gold = 34.0 2x with at least an 8.00 on each event in the SAME meets as the 34.0 were achieved.
Xcel Platinum = we don't compete Diamond, so from Platinum, SOME teams would transition back in to L7 with 34.0 2x with at least an 8.00 on each event in the SAME meets as the 34.0 were achieved... and others let them stay Platinum).
2 - Some states finish their season in December and have plenty of time to train higher skills and perfect the basics before the meet in late June / early July... We aren't done until mid-March to mid-April, so less time.

If Gymnastics Ontario DOES implement Mandate scores, I hope they will set them high enough (37.5 with a 9.0 on each event) that the gymnast actually has a chance to succeed at the next level.

 

[Honey]

Well the rumour I've heard is that the score is 37.xx, at least for level 7. I think that is an appropriate threshold for that level.

 

[raenndrops]

I completely agree

 

[Oceanflippermom]

Not sure I can agree, as some kids may be missing skills to safely move to the next level.

 

[MILgymFAM]

Not sure I can agree, as some kids may be missing skills to safely move to the next level.

I have heard this said often as a reason not to force move-ups, but really if s kid has mastered their current level, why not have the move up and simply train without competing until ready? How does staying to dominate a mastered level help anyone? Wouldn't focusing on training without the distraction of competing until ready be better for the gymnast too?

 

[Oceanflippermom]

Train without competing? Really? I'm sure that's going to go over well with people paying 300.00 a month in tuition. Plus, wouldn't that just make the kid want to quit? All kids who repeat are not just doing so to win?!? I definitely don't see moving someone up who scored 33-34 that isn't successful to me. If it is mandatory to move up, then the score would have to be 37 and even then success at one level doesn't mean you have the skills you need to move up or be successful at the next level. I'm not talking compulsory, I'm talking optionals!

 

[MILgymFAM]

Train without competing? Really? I'm sure that's going to go over well with people paying 300.00 a month in tuition. Plus, wouldn't that just make the kid want to quit? All kids who repeat are not just doing so to win?!? I definitely don't see moving someone up who scored 33-34 that isn't successful to me. If it is mandatory to move up, then the score would have to be 37 and even then success at one level doesn't mean you have the skills you need to move up or be successful at the next level. I'm not talking compulsory, I'm talking optionals!

I would gladly pay for my daughter to train without competing if she were between levels. It's still cheaper than paying for competitions she has already been to at a specific level. I know this is a competition sport, but I think that when you are talking about repeating vs moving up short a skill (or skills) perhaps it's time to step back and just let them do gymnastics. Practice is way more important than competitions to my DD. I understand she is a lower level, but I hope that never changes. I have her in the sport because of her love for it, not for any wins. She would absolutely not quit because she was told to train only until she was ready. Personally, I see no negatives in that, but I do understand that I am in the minority.

Eta: I believe we were discussing a 37 or so as the threshold, which I do believe to be fair. No one is suggesting that a kid scoring 33 or 34 has mastered everything and should be forced up. I wouldn't suggest they should be held back either. There is a lower threshold for move ups, and it's just logical that there would be a higher threshold also.

 

[raenndrops]

Train without competing? Really? I'm sure that's going to go over well with people paying 300.00 a month in tuition. Plus, wouldn't that just make the kid want to quit? All kids who repeat are not just doing so to win?!? I definitely don't see moving someone up who scored 33-34 that isn't successful to me. If it is mandatory to move up, then the score would have to be 37 and even then success at one level doesn't mean you have the skills you need to move up or be successful at the next level. I'm not talking compulsory, I'm talking optionals!

They are saying that the Mandatory move up score would be 37.xx. They would not IMMEDIATELY move up. They have the off season to train new skills in addition to training them during the current season once it is clear that they will be moving up. PLUS... they could always SCRATCH the event they are not ready for... or at the Optional levels, compete a routine that isn't out of a 10.0 (My gymmie competed the entire season with a Beam Routine out of a 9.0 and finished as high as 2nd place).
In USAG JO L8, some girls compete a FHS vault even though it is not out of a 10.0 at that level.
Even though OUR zone had unreasonable move up mandates (which could be petitioned out of for a first year competitor at a level), a REASONABLE mandate score is a GREAT idea!

 

[Oceanflippermom]

Well it gets to a point when your child gets to higher levels that there will be lots of repeaters, that's just the way it is. There's not but so far you can go. I have no issues with kids repeating, they aren't necessarily doing it to be the winner as you say.

 

[gymdog]

Well, I find it hard to believe at the lower compulsory levels a kid getting 37+ can't compete even one event at the next level by the next season. I would definitely disagree with it being immediate, but by the next season, they should be able to.

However, if people want to game the system, they will...no matter what we've tried in our state we have problems...we just have a lot of compulsories and by nature that makes it more competitive, so by nature people try to find ways to get an advantage whether that be by repeating (and we have kids winning first place AA at states in a group of 30 then repeating...tell me that kid can't compete at least 3 events six months later...sorry but I don't believe it), moving kids to Xcel to dominate, or training more hours. If we had a mandate score, I assume people would just hold kids back from competing an extra year. When we did small and large team, people just didn't accept people onto their team because small team was easier to win...it's a mess and no matter what you think of,my he teams that want to dominate find a way. So now we've just given up and do a straightforward way. Same team wins level 3 and 4 every year, good for them, other teams win the other levels so you have to decide your philosophy.

 

[kitkat]

This is the example that we were told by our HC.
One of our girls was in level 8 and she got a 37.+ at a qualifier and also scored a 37.+ at provincials. She will be required to move up next year to level 9.
We asked - what if she didn't want to. No choice - she is required to move up.

 

[gymdog]

Tried to edit but it said the time limit expired, anyway I meant to add that for levels 8+ this is much less true, no mandate score will work there, but anyway we will never have one in the US because there are rare exceptions. These are much less common than some gyms will have you believe though...

 

[Honey]

This is the example that we were told by our HC.
One of our girls was in level 8 and she got a 37.+ at a qualifier and also scored a 37.+ at provincials. She will be required to move up next year to level 9.
We asked - what if she didn't want to. No choice - she is required to move up.

Thanks Kitkat. Same boat here. No choice? Interesting. What else did your HC say? Is this a done deal for next season or is it possible GO changes their mind on this policy? Can a gym petition for an exception?

[Also, I am enjoying the debate on the merits of mandatory move ups so please carry on everyone! ]

 

[raenndrops]

This is the example that we were told by our HC.
One of our girls was in level 8 and she got a 37.+ at a qualifier and also scored a 37.+ at provincials. She will be required to move up next year to level 9.
We asked - what if she didn't want to. No choice - she is required to move up.

Back when our YMCA Zone (basically the state) had Mandate scores, there was a petition process to repeat... mostly only available one time per level per gymnast. However, at L8 there were more allowed petitions... and since we didn't have L10 as an option, L9 was the final level (although some girls really WANTED L9 or their coach was too lazy to petition... and they would compete L9 with one or 2 events still at L8 requirements). But remember, our mandate scores were much lower.

As for L8 - L9 ... using USAG JO levels:
Bars - a bare MINIMUM L8 Routine would have an 7.70 SV (assuming no connections bonus at L9).
Beam - a bare MINIMUM L8 Routine would have an 8.20 SV (assuming no connections bonus at L9).
Floor - a bare MINIMUM L8 Routine would have an 8.70 SV (assuming no connections bonus at L9).
Vault - Handspring has an 8.6 SV (it's a 9.0 SV at L8).
This is all assuming the gymnast does not add ANY new skills to the L8 routines and has no C skills. It also assumes that they only do one flight skill on beam and no B saltos on floor (if they have a B salto, put it in the last tumbling pass and floor SV increases. With the addition of 1 C skill, each SV increases by 0.50.

 

[gymdog]

I think we can all agree those scores are too low...however I just question why in my state there are so many cases of kids competing and getting 37s one year and 39 the next year "but they don't have the skills for the next level." Sorry but I don't think so...I have zero to one kids repeat each year out my entire compulsory program and we still do quite well team wise and have individual event and AA champions that are first years. None of my kids have problems competing full routines the following season. This year I thought a few kids might not be ready on all four the first meet, but they all were (which is my personal requirement for compulsory, anyway). But we have a very long season running nearly the entire school year so to me, it seems like it should take a LOT to have a child repeat the compulsory levels (extremely basic gymnastics). And I place a very high importance on the quality of mastering these basics BUT it's definitely different than having a kid do a second year fall season of level 4 then move to 6 or 7 that same spring is my point. It's hard for me to imagine that as many kids in my state repeat NEED to do two full calendar years at a level.

But again, I think a mandatory move up score would literally accomplish nothing except punish the rare few who are following the rules but have an exceptional case, so I would never advocate for it. Also I don't see any place for it at levels 8+, the field thins so much there and if someone is really dominating, of course they would move up because by those levels the point is to get the attention of recruiters or the national team. There doesn't really seem to be a problem of sandbagging at those levels at all because of this. It's just a completely different situation from the compulsory rat race.

 

[gymmama999]

My daughter was told level 5's if they are top 8, they move up, level 6+ if they score over 37 at Ontario Provincial Championships they move up.