Parents Rant about the system (regionals age groups)

[gymgal]

Also to note in todays Social Media world. A good gymnast can and will be noticed without going to Nationals.

Definitely true. It is less of an issue than it was 10 -15 years ago

 

[ODDBALL]

Curious if those with gymnasts in very competitive regions where scores of 37-38+ do not move on to nationals have noticed any obvious impact on college recruiting for those kids. Or is this primarily seen with the younger age groups where recruitment is not yet a factor? Just wondering if this poses a true detriment to some of the most talented gymnasts or is more bothersome because it favors regions over individual athletes and therefore is inherently unfair to many.

All of the girls at our gym have been recruited from Nationals . We do have college coaches stop by the gym in the summer. Usually they are just passing through to another gym or a camp. We have never had a college coach come to the gym just to recruit a specific gymnast. We have one of the hardest region of some of the Top gymnast who are recruit to the Top 10 Colleges. It's harder for an average gymnast to get noticed.

 

[Deleted member 18037]

All of the girls at our gym have been recruited from Nationals .

So you are saying you know for a fact that the only time those college coaches saw your gyms, gymnast was at Nationals?

Those coaches just stumbled by your gym for a pit stop? They hadnt ever seen a gymmies video somewhere, or seen their regional scores somewhere? Nope they just stopped by to stretch their legs.

None of the gymnasts at your club gymnasts have Instagram, You Tube or other Social Media accounts? None contacted coaches when they were able? None are listed on recruit sites? None have gone to any college camps? The only place your clubs gymnasts is at Nationals.

That’s very naive on your part.

Sorry I don’t buy it. Around here I know quite a few gymmies who are being “watched” by various colleges. Will they coaches also see them at Nationals, for the ones who go, likely. But those coaches aren’t just ”stumbling“ upon them at Nationals. Nationals makes it easier to see multiple gymmies on their potential lists but it’s not their first exposure to those gymmies.

And those coaches just “stopping” by your gym. They are “unofficially“ scoping out the kids they can’t yet officially contact. some who might not yet have had a National appearance.

 

[Deleted member 18037]

And to continue on the gymmies from a stronger state who are better than perhaps gymmies from a a weaker state.

So also naive to think we all know this and yet this has not occurred to college coaches.

Nationals is one way of many to see gymnast.

And if a truly talented kid, who might miss the cut in a strong state is not actively self recruiting but instead just waiting to be noticed. Big mistake. Huge.

 

[ODDBALL]

So you are saying you know for a fact that the only time those college coaches saw your gyms, gymnast was at Nationals?

Those coaches just stumbled by your gym for a pit stop? They hadnt ever seen a gymmies video somewhere, or seen their regional scores somewhere? Nope they just stopped by to stretch their legs.

None of the gymnasts at your club gymnasts have Instagram, You Tube or other Social Media accounts? None contacted coaches when they were able? None are listed on recruit sites? None have gone to any college camps? The only place your clubs gymnasts is at Nationals.

Thats very naive on your part.

Sorry I don’t buy it. Around here I know quite a few gymmies who are being “watched” by various colleges. Will they coaches also see them at Nationals, for the ones who go, likely. But those coaches aren’t just ”stumbling“ upon them at Nationals. Nationals makes it easier to see multiple gymmies on their potential lists but it’s not their first exposure to those gymmies.

And those coaches just “stopping” by your gym. They are “unofficially“ scoping out the kids they can’t yet officially contact. some who might not yet have had a National appearance.

I'm sorry you resorted to name calling. Thank you for your lovely comment!

I was simply stating facts that has happened for our gymnast and at our gym.

I could careless if you believe this or not.

 

[gym_dad32608]

I'm sorry you resorted to name calling. Thank you for your lovely comment!

I was simply stating facts that has happened for our gymnast and at our gym.

I could careless if you believe this or not.

I dont think anyone is name calling. Absolutely, there is a correlation between girls going to nationals and girls getting recruited, but it is because these girls are generally solid gymnasts who consistently score well. If they werent going to nationals they still would be recruited. An average or middling gymnast is not going to get recruited just because they made it to nationals from a weak region.
I know, I agree, it stings, it sucks its deflating to be that last one out. Especially if you start looking around and playing the "what if" game. But that is what makes it a sport, you know the thrill of victory/agony of defeat. There will always be a last one out, unless we start making it bigger and bigger, and then where do we stop? That's part of my participation trophy comment, if one follows this line of thinking to its conclusion, we end up with more folks going just because they tried than actually winning a competition. And what about those gymnasts who do qualify with a 35-36? Did they not win a competition among their peers? Are we going to punish them because they happened to be in a less competitive age band or region? Does that sound fair?

Honestly, I really understand the OP viewpoint. I do think having the specialist sessions is a good compromise while not straying far from the ideal of competition. It is another avenue to go to nationals through high performance at an event.

 

[gymgal]

Honestly, I really understand the OP viewpoint. I do think having the specialist sessions is a good compromise while not straying far from the ideal of competition. It is another avenue to go to nationals through high performance at an event.

We have been out of JO/DP for a while. What is the specialist category? Do you have to classify yourself as a specialist at some point and then win the event at regionals or can you go into regionals as an AA and qualify as a specialist based on your placement?

 

[gym_dad32608]

We have been out of JO/DP for a while. What is the specialist category? Do you have to classify yourself as a specialist at some point and then win the event at regionals or can you go into regionals as an AA and qualify as a specialist based on your placement?

I'm not 100% but this is the announcement from last year L10 nationals:

"New in 2022, USA Gymnastics is introducing a Wildcard Individual Event Specialist session, which has the potential to include 22 additional athletes per region. To qualify, gymnasts will need to possess the next-highest scores on an individual event at their respective regional championships. The qualified participants will be determined after each age group's regional team is named."

I think you basically petition the region if you have a qualifying score to go in this category. I know last year we had some girls that qualified but chose not to petition. So that's a thing too. The girls that did go as specialists had a whole separate meet before the "traditional" nationals at the same venue. They raved about it.

 

[Pigeon]

Each region can send 2 additional all-around athletes that didn't qualify within the age groups (it doesn't seem clear in the rules/regulations how those 2 are selected, I guess the next 2 highest all-around scorers from all age-groups?). And then 5 gymnasts per event will qualify to the "wild card" session on Friday night (they are calling it the All-Star session this year). They take the 5 top event scorers from all the gymnasts remaining that did not qualify to nationals, regardless of the age group. You could be competing on 1 or multiple events if you have scores that fall in that top 5. You don't have to declare as an event specialist, and you still would have had to qualify to regionals with your all around score.

 

[Flicfliclay]

Each region can send 2 additional all-around athletes that didn't qualify within the age groups (it doesn't seem clear in the rules/regulations how those 2 are selected, I guess the next 2 highest all-around scorers from all age-groups?). And then 5 gymnasts per event will qualify to the "wild card" session on Friday night (they are calling it the All-Star session this year). They take the 5 top event scorers from all the gymnasts remaining that did not qualify to nationals, regardless of the age group. You could be competing on 1 or multiple events if you have scores that fall in that top 5. You don't have to declare as an event specialist, and you still would have had to qualify to regionals with your all around score.

Just so i think i am reading it correctly. The top 5 event scorers would be across all age groups correct? So say your daughter scored a 9.65 on bars and only did bars at regionals and she got 2nd place... what if 5 other girls got the same score? who do they send?

 

[gym_dad32608]

Just so i think i am reading it correctly. The top 5 event scorers would be across all age groups correct? So say your daughter scored a 9.65 on bars and only did bars at regionals and she got 2nd place... what if 5 other girls got the same score? who do they send?

DP Rules that is correct. If you look at bottom of page 87. Each region can send 2 all-arounders and 5 per event across age groups. It does not talk about ties other than ties for the traditional all-arounders. Which I guess leaves it up to the regions?

"Each region will have the opportunity to qualify up to 22 additional athletes to compete in the Wildcard session. 1) Two (2) total All-around athletes that did not qualify within their age group from the Regional Championship. 2) Five (5) individual athletes per event that did not qualify via AA from their Regional Championship. Chapter 8 88 • Qualification NOT by age group, rather the next eligible athletes from the entire Regional Championship."

 

[gymgal]

After thinking about it more, I really like the idea of a "super" region team (of say 8 or 10 competitors total). This would allow the smaller regions a greater chance of placing well since they would pool their talent into one team regardless of age. The rest of the slots would be split more equitably among the regions. The number of competitors would be the same as now (so no "participation trophy" mentality, gymdad). Use the same format that some regions do for their L6,7,8 regional competitions. Every state is allowed the same percentage of qualifiers but the numbers are obviously different based on the number of gymnasts in each state.

As it stands now, Region 2 essentially has the potential to send all their gymnasts (who go to regionals) to nationals. Region 6 could send 65%. Regions 1,3,7,8 only send roughly 30%. Changing to a super team and regular competition would eliminate the disparity of the age groups as well, where the regions would set their own equal age groups and then the gymnasts would be regrouped at nationals. Qualifying could be from one large set in each region or by dividing into jr/sr divisions, to account for age differences. Frankly, I think age is less an issue than the number of years in L10 but that's just me.

Stats from 2022. Previous years are similar. Highest non-qualifying scores I saw from previous 5 years was 37.9. We could argue that these gymnasts would have little chance to win at Nationals. The same is true of the gymnasts who qualify with 35s and they still get to go to the "dig dance". It is a true honor and achievement to get to Nationals, even if you know you have little chance of winning.

		1	2	3	4	5	6	7	8
2022​	total #	270	70	252	181	228	130	267	277
	% of slots/ competitors	31%	120%	33%	46%	37%	65%	31%	30%
	# range for divisions	16-32	3-10	16-23	4-23	12-27	7-17	16-28	16-32
	# of spots unfilled		32		8		12
	tot. # 37.0+ not qualifying	32		2		8		5	10

 

[gym_dad32608]

After thinking about it more, I really like the idea of a "super" region team (of say 8 or 10 competitors total). This would allow the smaller regions a greater chance of placing well since they would pool their talent into one team regardless of age. The rest of the slots would be split more equitably among the regions. The number of competitors would be the same as now (so no "participation trophy" mentality, gymdad). Use the same format that some regions do for their L6,7,8 regional competitions. Every state is allowed the same percentage of qualifiers but the numbers are obviously different based on the number of gymnasts in each state.

As it stands now, Region 2 essentially has the potential to send all their gymnasts (who go to regionals) to nationals. Region 6 could send 65%. Regions 1,3,7,8 only send roughly 30%. Changing to a super team and regular competition would eliminate the disparity of the age groups as well, where the regions would set their own equal age groups and then the gymnasts would be regrouped at nationals. Qualifying could be from one large set in each region or by dividing into jr/sr divisions, to account for age differences. Frankly, I think age is less an issue than the number of years in L10 but that's just me.

Stats from 2022. Previous years are similar. Highest non-qualifying scores I saw from previous 5 years was 37.9. We could argue that these gymnasts would have little chance to win at Nationals. The same is true of the gymnasts who qualify with 35s and they still get to go to the "dig dance". It is a true honor and achievement to get to Nationals, even if you know you have little chance of winning.

		1	2	3	4	5	6	7	8
2022​	total #	270	70	252	181	228	130	267	277
	% of slots/ competitors	31%	120%	33%	46%	37%	65%	31%	30%
	# range for divisions	16-32	3-10	16-23	4-23	12-27	7-17	16-28	16-32
	# of spots unfilled		32		8		12
	tot. # 37.0+ not qualifying	32		2		8		5	10

A novel idea, and I'm not adverse to it, if I understand correctly, there are currently 12 age groups X 7 qualifies/per = 84 gymnasts/region x 8 regions = 672 slots. You are proposing to take lets say 10 slots per region for a super team to represent the "National Championship of Regions" leaving 592 slots to be divided among regions. Your proposal would divide that based upon the percentage of the total of gymnasts for each region. So lets say region 8 has 277/1675 = .17 or 17% of total so they should be alloted 592 x .17 = 100 slots. where region 2 should only have 24 slots. (592 x .04). Or are you saying still give equal # of slots to each region, just less?

I still am having a hard time understanding what problem that may solve without creating another problem. If you give less slots to smaller regions, arent they still going to have some cutoff point? And with less numbers wouldnt they also have higher chance of the problem stated by OP? And if you allow different age bands for different regions, isnt that potential to end up with unbalanced bands at nationals? I apologize if I dont completely understand what you are proposing. I get the regional all-star team just not really the rest. Either way I posit that the all-star/wildcard session (whatever they want to call it) addresses the original problem pretty well. Since someone who may have just missed the cut-off point for that region would still have the opportunity to go to nationals.

 

[skschlag]

On the boys side, they do use a percentage to determine how many in each region at each level go to nationals.

 

[gymgal]

A novel idea, and I'm not adverse to it, if I understand correctly, there are currently 12 age groups X 7 qualifies/per = 84 gymnasts/region x 8 regions = 672 slots. You are proposing to take lets say 10 slots per region for a super team to represent the "National Championship of Regions" leaving 592 slots to be divided among regions. Your proposal would divide that based upon the percentage of the total of gymnasts for each region. So lets say region 8 has 277/1675 = .17 or 17% of total so they should be alloted 592 x .17 = 100 slots. where region 2 should only have 24 slots. (592 x .04).

What you described could be a logical way to distribute the slots. The way our region does it for L6-8 is they decide a specific percentage that every state goes by. For instance, L6 might be 26%. Every state will get the number of slots equal to 26% of their state qualifiers to regionals. So the states with more gymnasts end up with more slots. If a state has so few gymnasts that they are under 8 slots, they still get get those 8 slots to fill their super team. At our regionals, you qualify based on score regardless of age group but like I said, for nationals they could divide the gymnasts into jr/sr.

 

[gymgal]

I get the regional all-star team just not really the rest. Either way I posit that the all-star/wildcard session (whatever they want to call it) addresses the original problem pretty well. Since someone who may have just missed the cut-off point for that region would still have the opportunity to go to nationals.

The wildcard session is a not the same as these girls are competing in a different competition, right? So they are not part of the National meet. Many years ago, they had a similar competition where the alternates competed in a separate meet the day before nationals. It was OK but there was enough push where they decided to adjust the age groups and add more qualifiers to the actual Nationals meet. It allowed more girls to compete but it still didn't solve the problem that many of the higher scoring gymnasts were not there. You had gymnasts with 34s competing while those with 37s didn't qualify.

It is clear that the powers that be at USAG prefer a regional based competition. It is what it is. If they wanted a true best-of-the-best event, it would not be that difficult to implement. My post was just making a case for the super team being a viable option to make the competition more equitable, without having to rearrange all the regions, which has been in consideration in the past and in which it appears no state wants.

 

[jm_gymmom]

On a somewhat, yet not completely related note, why do they not on occasion re-boundary the regions to even numbers up a bit? Seems that would not solve the problem completely, but would help if at least each region was sending a similar percentage of athletes to nationals.

 

[GymnastMomX2]

I think they have adjusted regions in the past right?

 

[gymgal]

I think they have adjusted regions in the past right?

Not for the past 15 years that dd has been in gymnastics. Not sure before then

 

[txgymfan]

There was talk about adjusting the regions a few years ago. Most of the coaches that were in states likely to be moved protested. The gyms in weaker did not want to be in a tougher region. Also, some coaches protested the possible increase in travel to stay within their region. There were other reasons as well. There was a vigorous debate about possible regional changes here. I’ll link the thread if I can find it.