Parents Rant about the system (regionals age groups)

[josie55]

Yes NCAA scoring is tight. That’s not what we are talking about here. NCAA scoring is very different from that of DP. If the qualifying score to DP Nationals was 36 instead of 35 then the spots that are currently going to those scoring 35-35.95 would instead go to those scoring, say, 37+ in other regions. Just a thought for how to restore some balance is all.

 

[Pigeon]

If kids are scoring that high then 36 isn’t enough. It is just how that falls out.

I think the point she's trying to make is that in some age divisions, it is enough. Our region (7) had a couple of age groups that qualified with scores in the 35s. We aren't the strongest region, but we are pretty big.

Edited to add: Minimum qualification scores ranged from 37.825 to 35.425
(Editing again: I personally wouldn't want those less than 36 scoring spots to go to another region! )

 

[Deleted member 18037]

Edited to add: Minimum qualification scores ranged from 37.825 to 35.425
(Editing again: I personally wouldn't want those less than 36 scoring spots to go to another region! )

Of course not it’s about the best of the region.

Everyone is free to move about the country

 

[josie55]

Everyone is free to move about the country

If we are having a sincere conversation around how the system might be improved, I'm not sure telling people to move to another part of the country (so their kid could qualify to L10 nationals?!) is a reasonable suggestion, though I'm guessing you know that also. At the end of the day, the current system works well for the majority of people in it, and as with most things in life, those who are benefitting from an established system will always be reluctant to change it.

 

[gym_dad32608]

At the end of the day, the current system works well for the majority of people in it,

You just said it. If the current system is working well for the majority of the people, do we change it to benefit the few exceptions and outliers? Sure we can tweak things to try and improve at the margins, but unless there is something fundamentally wrong/unfair why do wholesale change? One region's 35 might be another's 37. You cant know unless they are judged by the same judges on the same equipment in the same venue at the same time. Its about showing up and competing at that time.

I do think the wildcard event specialist selection should be changed if correct in using the all-around score for the tie-breaker. Since the premise is one is an event specialist, I would suggest looking at their scores for the season on that event.

 

[Deleted member 18037]

If we are having a sincere conversation around how the system might be improved, I'm not sure telling people to move to another part of the country (so their kid could qualify to L10 nationals?!) is a reasonable suggestion, though I'm guessing you know that also.

I didn’t tell anyone to do anything.

As to reasonable or not. That’s percepotion.

Its is just as much an option as

-moving to a gym with a home school option and pulling a child from regular school for gymnastics
-moving so a child can attend a gym that has an elite program
-moving so a child can be coached at a particular gym or work with a particular coach
-moving from a gym that does 15 hours to one that does 30
-families making decisions to split where they physically live or send the athlete to live with some other family to do their sport.

Families make decisions like this quite often. From moving to a gym and taking on a many hour commute, to moving many states away. And not just gymnastics. But in other sports as well.

In all sports there will be athletes who just miss qualifying for something. It is the nature of competition.

 

[CuriousCate]

Not sure if something like this has been suggested in the pages of replies, but USA Diving for JO has what I think is a pretty good possible solution for this.

To advance from the regional meet, the top 15 kids per age group per region (12 regions) move on automatically (they move to a zone meet prior to nationals). Obviously, there are more and less competitive regions and there are pretty sizable score variations among the lowest qualifying score region to region.

Upon the conclusion of all 12 regional meets, USA Diving does a stat analysis of the qualifying scores and comes up with a "recalculated average score" to qualify for advancement. Per the rule book:
Any diver achieving the recalculated average score or higher for Regional events will also qualify for the appropriate Zone Championships. The procedure for calculating this average follows: the scores of the 15th diver (or the last diver if there are fewer than 15 event entries) in each event from each Region will be averaged and that average will be considered a possible qualifying score. Any region score not within one standard deviation (as per divemeets.com calculation) of the average will be deleted and the average will be recalculated.

Granted, diving is based on age groups and not levels, so different, but this still might work.

 

[gym_dad32608]

My issue with that is the potential variability with judging between regions.

 

[gymgal]

One region's 35 might be another's 37. You cant know unless they are judged by the same judges on the same equipment in the same venue at the same time. Its about showing up and competing at that time.

This is not happening anywhere. Are there variations? Yes, but not by 2 points. We were from a tough scoring state. Our girls were routinely scored higher when they went to other states and regions. But we are talking a couple of tenths per event, so no more than a full point and it was rarely that much.

 

[gym_dad32608]

This is not happening anywhere. Are there variations? Yes, but not by 2 points. We were from a tough scoring state. Our girls were routinely scored higher when they went to other states and regions. But we are talking a couple of tenths per event, so no more than a full point and it was rarely that much.

That's my point exactly, I used a hyper-exaggerated difference to make the point. There is enough variation between judges such that you cant say, oh this girl scored a 36.2 in this region, and this girl scored a 36.7 in another so she is inherently better or clearly deserves to go. I didnt mean it as a literal example. The bottom line is on that day, at that competition, how those judges are scoring are going to be different than how a whole different set of other judges on another day at another venue are going to score. So instead of trying to make some transitive property leap of Region 8 scores were this and Region 5's were that so its obvious Region 8 should have more girls, just worry about the competition for your region on that day. Every meet is its own entity. Look at what happened in NCAA championships between semis and finals.

 

[3rd_time_around]

I’d be ranting too. It should be strictly score based.

The problem with this, is one that has been a problem forever. The scores go up throughout the day. They just do. Levels 6-8 qualify by being in the top % in their state that is predetermined by number of gymnasts in each state in the region. The girls in the first session, and especially in Flight A, know that they have very little chance of making it to regionals. For example, in our state at level 6, only 16 girls in the first session qualified. 45 qualified from the next 2 sessions. There was only one 9.8 scored in the first session; there were too many to count in the next 2 sessions. (The first session had child, Junior, and senior age groups, so it wasn’t about only seniors or only the child group competing). No one from the first session made the state team, despite scoring over 38.

The great thing about regionals, is that the qualifying to nationals occurs exclusively in the session competed. There’s no waiting till the end of the day to see if you made it, it’s done as soon as the session is complete. That way, if the session is judged harder, it doesn’t matter because everyone was judged harder. if the session is judged by tired judges who’ve been judging all weekend and scores are higher than normal, it’s ok because it’s contained in the session and everyone in the session is judged a little higher. Also, some regions judge harder or easier than other regions, so it wouldn’t be a fair way to qualify without all gymnasts having the same judges.

As far as fairness, it’s pretty good. Yes, some regions are more populated and have more high scorers, but that’s just how it goes. It’s very much like the Electoral College, ensuring that all regions are represented and have a chance.

 

[3rd_time_around]

It seems to me that the most fair system would be for each region to take the top X gymnasts regardless of age to nationals. Age shouldn't matter so much when competing at such a high level and the best should go to nationals within each region. Younger ages will get their chance when they are older.

The younger ones are often the best ones, so that doesn’t really work out. If all gymnasts could compete at the same time, it might work, but that just can’t happen.

 

[3rd_time_around]

Totally understand. With everyone's routines now being posted on social media... It's amazing to see the variance in scoring by regions. It's not even subjective that some regions score a half a point lower or higher on some single events.

Dude! Yes! I have a video from Texas where a level 6 scored a 9.75 with the exact same bar routine, performed exactly the same way, as my daughter who scored a 9.2. You could literally lay one video on top of the other, and it would look like one person (except my dd has straighter legs ), yet the scores were .5 different.

 

[Deleted member 18037]

The problem with this, is one that has been a problem forever. The scores go up throughout the day. They just do.

Even in one session the scores tend go up. Even within a rotation.

And these things are not unique to gymnastics. Situations are not exactly the same but many things change throughout a day. Temperature can be a huge factor in outside sports. Report time for various sports. A morning athlete with a later report time or a night owl athlete with an early report time.

In gymnastics rotation order makes a difference, timing and flow of events, equipment. My kids worse bars of her life. Last event at a meet where she waited 1 and 1/2 hour from event prior. At almost 10 pm. Oh well.

Judges are who they are. My kid will know how she is going to score based on who is judging what. Oh Ms A is on floor, we are all going to score high. Uh oh. Ms C is on vault. We’ll be lucky if any one gets a 9.

Lacrosse game refs calling so many penalties a 25 minute half went over 50 minutes. Next half, same refs. It’s late, sun setting, past dinner time. They could barely be bothered calling a thing.

Heck NFL football officiating on any given Sunday, just holding calls or lack there of alone. Oy.