WAG Reacting to Abuse Claims

[Flippin'A]

All this business with Everest has gotten me thinking about how to respond when one of these public accusations comes out against a coach. It seems that large parts of the gymnastics community (or at least the portion that's active on social media) immediately chooses a side, and the results can get ugly. I remember when Nassar was first accused and there were tons of people rallying behind him, and the same happened with Geddert, Sharpe, Karolyi, even going back to when Korbut first accused Knysh I remember people belittling and dismissing her. I've seen enough abuse in gymnastics to automatically side with the accuser, but I've also heard from a few coaches on here that they've been threatened with false abuse accusations.

Basically I'd love to start a discussion about how we as a community can support the potential victims of abuse so they feel free to speak up, while not creating a culture where a single accusation can destroy a coach's career. Should we all just shut up until an investigation is done? Lend support to the accuser but not demonize the accused? If one of these accusations came about your child's coach (or if it already has) would/have you removed them from the gym or just rely on what you've personally witnessed? What are your thoughts?

 

[raenndrops]

If a single abuse allegation comes out about a coach, if my child was going to that gym, there are several steps I would take.
1.I would be talking to my child, generally, about the coaches and how they are with the girls.
2. I would make a point of watching practice - I don't care if there is a "NO WATCHING" policy, I would be watching or my child would not be going.
3. I would talk to the gym owner (unless the owner was the accused) about how they are dealing with the situation. Are they placing the coach on administrative leave pending the outcome of the investigation? Are they letting the coach continue coaching? If so, is the coach being closely supervised / monitored?
4. I would support the victim - always support the victim. That does not mean automatically demonizing the accused.
5. I would wait for the results of the investigation. HOWEVER, if SEVERAL gymnasts come forward after the initial report (including girls who quit gym altogether AND girls who changed gyms), I would definitely be pushing the gym for the coach to be gone.

 

[gasrgoose]

All this business with Everest has gotten me thinking about how to respond when one of these public accusations comes out against a coach. It seems that large parts of the gymnastics community (or at least the portion that's active on social media) immediately chooses a side, and the results can get ugly. I remember when Nassar was first accused and there were tons of people rallying behind him, and the same happened with Geddert, Sharpe, Karolyi, even going back to when Korbut first accused Knysh I remember people belittling and dismissing her. I've seen enough abuse in gymnastics to automatically side with the accuser, but I've also heard from a few coaches on here that they've been threatened with false abuse accusations.

Basically I'd love to start a discussion about how we as a community can support the potential victims of abuse so they feel free to speak up, while not creating a culture where a single accusation can destroy a coach's career. Should we all just shut up until an investigation is done? Lend support to the accuser but not demonize the accused? If one of these accusations came about your child's coach (or if it already has) would/have you removed them from the gym or just rely on what you've personally witnessed? What are your thoughts?

Just my opinion, but... If you don't have a personal relationship with the coach, gymnast or the club keep your opinion to yourself because you are not informed and likely can't help. Just because there are avenues to voice our opinions through social media doesn't mean we should.

 

[lovofu]

Just my opinion, but... If you don't have a personal relationship with the coach, gymnast or the club keep your opinion to yourself because you are not informed and likely can't help. Just because there are avenues to voice our opinions through social media doesn't mean we should.

Part of me agrees with the above and a bigger part of me says doing NOTHING or saying Nothing tells the girls and families that coming forward will result in them being judged and attacked and the cycle continues. I think that just saying WE NEED TO CHANGE and do better for our girls and this sport we love works for me. I have also had my daughter in gyms where the abused (verbal) were handpicked and the coaches could show affection, kindness and respect to others making it a delicate situation. For some there was no abuse and for others it was constant and damaging. Are the ones not abused wrong to speak out in support? Not necessarily BUT in one gym the non abused girls parents were aware it was going on and WOULD NOT SPEAK UP, just in case it would bring their child into the abused camp. They also attack those that speak up because their kid has a good thing going. I speak from personal experience and it is horrible to be on the receiving end of "It didn't happen, YOU ARE CRAZY" comments, texts and verbal attacks. Horrible for all.

 

[gasrgoose]

Understood and I agree that it would be horrible (for both parties) if no one said anything. Surely those who are personally connected will speak up, but not necessarily on social media. My point is that if I have no personal knowledge, I'm likely doing harm publicly commenting. For instance, Everest..... I don't know the coach accused and have never had a conversation with him. I also don't know the accusers and have never had a conversation with them or their families. So what could I possibly add to a conversation regarding this situation. I'll either harm the coach or the gymnasts by offering my thoughts. We see them at about half our meets and my gymnast considers some of their gymnasts friends, but that doesn't give her a reason to comment either.

 

[lovofu]

Understood and I agree that it would be horrible (for both parties) if no one said anything. Surely those who are personally connected will speak up, but not necessarily on social media. My point is that if I have no personal knowledge, I'm likely doing harm publicly commenting. For instance, Everest..... I don't know the coach accused and have never had a conversation with him. I also don't know the accusers and have never had a conversation with them or their families. So what could I possibly add to a conversation regarding this situation. I'll either harm the coach or the gymnasts by offering my thoughts. We see them at about half our meets and my gymnast considers some of their gymnasts friends, but that doesn't give her a reason to comment either.

 

[lovofu]

You can't say "surely they will speak up if personally affected" because as the Dad in the article states, even if personally affected there is intense pressure by coaches and parents and sometimes your own daughter to be quiet, deny, not rock the boat. My daughter said to me "Why do you always have to do the right thing?" How sad that she recognizes the right path is often the hard path. I hope when she is an adult she will be a VOICE for the ones that can't or won't speak up even if it's HARD.

 

[Dahlia]

It's difficult to say because false accusations are made and not all girls are affected by abuse.

For example, there were false accusations made against our gym's owner by a parent who was upset because his daughter didn't make team. In that case I knew firsthand the accusations were false so supported the accused. She was cleared eventually.

If I didn't know for sure, I'd stay out of it and not take sides. That being said, I'd be paying close attention because I would not leave my daughter at a gym where I knew or even strongly suspected abuse was going on. We left a previous gym because of many red flags and later find out from my daughter that the coaches were verbally abusive! She didn't knew that it wasn't normal and it wasn't apparent when sitting in the viewing area.

I feel fortunate that our current gym is very proactive in preventing mental and physical abuse. I've also had lots of talks with my daughter about what is ok and what isn't and feel comfortable that she'd be able to tell me if something was going on that wasn't ok.

 

[stillhoping]

How do you respond? With your money. If this happens at your gym, leave. My general observation is that abusers are charming and that parents are in denial that abuse could ever happen to their own child. My advice is that if you’ve seen or heard about an abusive incident, and you don’t live at the gym, there’s probably 100s that you’ve missed. I don’t know why anyone would take that risk with their child. There are other gyms. There are other sports. Why risk leaving your kid in an abusive environment, and pay thousands of dollars to do it? It makes no sense.

 

[Deleted member 14190]

Nothing wrong with a discussion , but no answer is the correct one. Simply put safesport is not equipped to deal with the size of this community. They need a much larger staff and investigators. IMO they are understaffed and are not following up with the mass of suspensions they are issuing. Solution ? They need to outsource. They should focus on the initial complaints filter and hand off.

 

[Flippin'A]

Nothing wrong with a discussion , but no answer is the correct one. Simply put safesport is not equipped to deal with the size of this community. They need a much larger staff and investigators. IMO they are understaffed and are not following up with the mass of suspensions they are issuing. Solution ? They need to outsource. They should focus on the initial complaints filter and hand off.

Thanks for this, I think it's a really important point.
I had a very similar discussion with some other parents and my DD's coach the other day. We were talking about how we'd feel much more confident sitting back and letting investigations happen if we actually trusted that Safesport had the resources and ability to conduct fair, thorough, and timely investigations for every complaint. We're definitely not there yet. DD's coach said if she ever saw someone abusing a child she would call Safesport, but she would also call law enforcement. Even if she didn't think it reached a level where the police would do anything she would want to start a paper trail so that the next time someone reported it would be taken seriously.

 

[Flippin'A]

For example, there were false accusations made against our gym's owner by a parent who was upset because his daughter didn't make team. In that case I knew firsthand the accusations were false so supported the accused. She was cleared eventually.

I find this totally unfathomable. I've seen some crazy gym parents, but the level of vindictiveness you'd have to get to to make up an abuse claim is crazy to me. Over something as silly as not making a sports team? Hard to believe there are people like this out there.

 

[duyetanh]

I find this totally unfathomable. I've seen some crazy gym parents, but the level of vindictiveness you'd have to get to to make up an abuse claim is crazy to me. Over something as silly as not making a sports team? Hard to believe there are people like this out there.

Oh it happens. Sadly.

 

[Deleted member 18037]

I find this totally unfathomable. I've seen some crazy gym parents, but the level of vindictiveness you'd have to get to to make up an abuse claim is crazy to me. Over something as silly as not making a sports team? Hard to believe there are people like this out there.

Yes, these things happen.

Yes there are people that vindictive. And see not making a team as very serious business. And would be appalled that someone considers not making team as silly.

 

[raenndrops]

Yes, these things happen.

Yes there are people that vindictive. And see not making a team as very serious business. And would be appalled that someone considers not making team as silly.

When I didn't make the Little League baseball team in my final year of eligibility (no girls did because the coach didn't want girls on his team... but I had other "strikes" against me with him anyways), my dad and the other minor league coaches came up with a plan.
They created an all girl all-star team consisting of all the girls in the league old enough to be in Little League (whether they were in Minor League for the first time or they had been since they were 6 and were now almost 13). This was in addition to the regular All Star Minor League team that had boys and girls (and only the best from each of the 3 teams in our town).
The girls all stars were created SPECIFICALLY to challenge the Little League team. We won all 3 games we played. In the first game, we ended up having to send a girl out to pitch in the last inning that NEVER even practiced as a pitcher and was a first year player. We still won 14 - 2.
THAT kind of "getting even" with a coach is MUCH better than faking an abuse claim. And it is SOOOOOO much more satisfying!

 

[Flippin'A]

Yes, these things happen.

Yes there are people that vindictive. And see not making a team as very serious business. And would be appalled that someone considers not making team as silly.

Yeah... I know it's very disappointing and I'm sure it feels like the end of the world to the child, but I see it as a learning opportunity on how to accept defeat gracefully, and persevere if it's something you really want. Every kid is eventually going to not make a team or not get a part in a play or not make the honor roll, or not succeed in some way. In my mind when we treat gymnastics as though it's life and death we're basically handing our children an unhealthy mindset. I'm sure there are people who would find that appalling, I guess I'm just past the point of caring at the moment.

 

[Deleted member 18037]

Yeah... I know it's very disappointing and I'm sure it feels like the end of the world to the child, but I see it as a learning opportunity on how to accept defeat gracefully, and persevere if it's something you really want. Every kid is eventually going to not make a team or not get a part in a play or not make the honor roll, or not succeed in some way. In my mind when we treat gymnastics as though it's life and death we're basically handing our children an unhealthy mindset. I'm sure there are people who would find that appalling, I guess I'm just past the point of caring at the moment.

Of course it’s not life and death. And of course not getting everything you want and when you want it, happens. So learning to deal with that is an incredibly important life lesson.

But as a parent I would never proclaim or imply something my kid wants, works hard for and is important to them, as “sillly”.

The damage of having the person who is supposed to be their biggest supporter dismiss the things that are important to them as”silly” (either in words or attitude/vibe) will last much longer then not getting the thing it self.

If it’s important enough to disappoint my kid, I need to help her deal with the disappointment, but I would never say or imply it’s silly.

 

[profmom]

Hi, Flippin'A. I think if I am remembering right, your daughter is still pretty early in her journey, no? It seems to me that it's fairly easy for parents not to get overly invested at the beginning and I agree that there's no point in behaving badly if a child is not put on a team at the desired level. I do, however, encourage some recognition that if a child opts to become a JO gymnast, as the child progresses in the sport, it becomes a family commitment, not just an individual activity that the child does. While I do believe that fundamentally it has to be the child's thing and not the parents', I have seen gymnasts struggle to progress because parents were not invested in helping the child to meet the sport's tremendous demands of time, transportation, and general emotional support.

[On preview, Ldw said what I was just typing, so I'll just second that.]

 

[Flippin'A]

Of course it’s not life and death. And of course not getting everything you want and when you want it, happens. So learning to deal with that is an incredibly important life lesson.

But as a parent I would never proclaim or imply something my kid wants, works hard for and is important to them, as “sillly”.

The damage of having the person who is supposed to be their biggest supporter dismiss the things that are important to them as”silly” (either in words or attitude/vibe) will last much longer then not getting the thing it self.

If it’s important enough to disappoint my kid, I need to help her deal with the disappointment, but I would never say or imply it’s silly.

I completely agree with all of this. I absolutely wasn't trying to say that JO gymnastics as a whole was a silly thing for a child to work hard at, or have goals in. But I stand by my point that it's a silly thing for an adult to try and ruin another adult's life over, by attempting to frame them for a crime, which is the context in which I used the word to begin with. There's a difference between treating not making team as something worthy of actual vengeance and dismissing your child's feelings.

 

[Flippin'A]

Hi, Flippin'A. I think if I am remembering right, your daughter is still pretty early in her journey, no? It seems to me that it's fairly easy for parents not to get overly invested at the beginning and I agree that there's no point in behaving badly if a child is not put on a team at the desired level. I do, however, encourage some recognition that if a child opts to become a JO gymnast, as the child progresses in the sport, it becomes a family commitment, not just an individual activity that the child does. While I do believe that fundamentally it has to be the child's thing and not the parents', I have seen gymnasts struggle to progress because parents were not invested in helping the child to meet the sport's tremendous demands of time, transportation, and general emotional support.

[On preview, Ldw said what I was just typing, so I'll just second that.]

Yes, she's early days. But I was a JO gymnast throughout my childhood and I'm well aware of the commitment. As I said above the word "silly" was used within a very specific context in which I was describing not making team as a silly reason for an adult to make false abuse claims.

I agree with every single thing you said, and I don't see how it disagrees with anything I've posted. I said that I don't think it's healthy to tell children that gymnastics is life and death, and I still don't. But there's a huge difference between that and not giving them all of the support they need to be a committed gymnast.