WAG Scoring help

[Deleted member 18037]

I think it depends on the question too. I think the some of the responses would have been different if a specific question was asked.

What is the deduction for not landing the cartwheel on the beam? Or she took a couple steps on her ROBHS landing on floor what is that deduction? Or what is the deduction for a bobbled squat on?

Rather what is a big deduction in Level 4................ the original question didn't even mention the event. Quite a broad brush.

 

[z2akids]

Perhaps my OP was the problem asking for a judge's opinion. I simply didn't want speculation. Heck, if I wanted that, I can get that from parents confused about scores at any meet. There was plenty of speculation on her score in the stands at the time. I have no interest in that. It doesn't make any difference. I didn't get really specific in my post for the very reason that I didn't want to invite a ton of speculation. I figured I could get one person to look at what she did on her kip and tell me what she was curious about - basically what is the deductions for missing a skill.

But, I was not asking why she scored X. I don't care about that. I was under the impression thst there is a specific deduction for missing a major skill and a specific deduction for a fall. I wasn't meaning to ask for an analysis of her score.

If my OP led people to believe otherwise, then I can understand some of the responses.

 

[gymdog]

I think it depends on the question too. I think the some of the responses would have been different if a specific question was asked.

What is the deduction for not landing the cartwheel on the beam? Or she took a couple steps on her ROBHS landing on floor what is that deduction? Or what is the deduction for a bobbled squat on?

Rather what is a big deduction in Level 4................ the original question didn't even mention the event. Quite a broad brush.

Right, I agree with this too. A more specific question would be more helpful since we could advise you about it in general.

For example let's say a child is doing their beam routine and does side handstand dismount with no quarter turn (level 2 dismount) in levels 3-5. This is a large deduction. And very common mistake. Sometimes it is just a mistake and they can do the dismount so they do it again correctly and only get a fall plus execution on both attempts (still often hefty). But in level 3 it is common that they might not actually be able to do the dismount yet, or they cannot do it consistently in a safe way, maybe they twist too close to the beam, or pike down and crash towards the ground, etc. all common.

So if someone here asked, I would tell them what deduction might occur from the scenario, but also would advise them that it's a very common error and their child shouldn't attempt the full dismount until they're ready, so the parent should not mention anything. If the child goes up into a handstand that is not fully locked at vertical, and then tries to "force" twisting they will land on or hit the beam. Sometimes a coach may knowingly need to instruct your child to do something that is a deduction, but the child will need to perform it that way for safety or progression reasons. This is just one example. They want the child to focus on another error, or to focus on completing the routine safely. If the parent jumps in and tells their child that they could have scored higher by doing xyz instead, then the coaching is undone. I'm sure you can see how this is a problem. Also, I have had parents tell their child things that are untrue, such as their child is getting a deduction because I stand between the bar on their tap swings (even if we did, I still would because I want to minimize the risk of their child breaking their neck. But it is not a deduction) or that if you go on a lower (allowable adjustment) setting you get a lower start value (also not true). This will cause their child to not trust the coach.

 

[z2akids]

Right, I agree with this too. A more specific question would be more helpful since we could advise you about it in general.

For example let's say a child is doing their beam routine and does side handstand dismount with no quarter turn (level 2 dismount) in levels 3-5. This is a large deduction. And very common mistake. Sometimes it is just a mistake and they can do the dismount so they do it again correctly and only get a fall plus execution on both attempts (still often hefty). But in level 3 it is common that they might not actually be able to do the dismount yet, or they cannot do it consistently in a safe way, maybe they twist too close to the beam, or pike down and crash towards the ground, etc. all common.

So if someone here asked, I would tell them what deduction might occur from the scenario, but also would advise them that it's a very common error and their child shouldn't attempt the full dismount until they're ready, so the parent should not mention anything. If the child goes up into a handstand that is not fully locked at vertical, and then tries to "force" twisting they will land on or hit the beam. Sometimes a coach may knowingly need to instruct your child to do something that is a deduction, but the child will need to perform it that way for safety or progression reasons. This is just one example. They want the child to focus on another error, or to focus on completing the routine safely. If the parent jumps in and tells their child that they could have scored higher by doing xyz instead, then the coaching is undone. I'm sure you can see how this is a problem. Also, I have had parents tell their child things that are untrue, such as their child is getting a deduction because I stand between the bar on their tap swings (even if we did, I still would because I want to minimize the risk of their child breaking their neck. But it is not a deduction) or that if you go on a lower (allowable adjustment) setting you get a lower start value (also not true). This will cause their child to not trust the coach.

I understand. I really wasn't trying to put everything out there. But, on bars, she did her squat on and jumped to the high bar. She said when she grabbed, something happened to the grip on one hand causing her to not have a correct grip. What it was, I didn't ask. She seems to believe thst it was a total fluke (never had a problem before - she normally has a good jump and catch). She said she thought if she had gotten the kip, she might have peeled on the tap swings. Anyway, if the coach thinks there was something wrong with her technique (or anything else) I am sure she will work with her. I simply offered my empathy thst she must have been frustrated to have something weird happen. And, when she asked what missing the kip cost her, I told her I would see if I could get a ballpark. She is a smart kid and knew that not completing a major skill is a big deduction and just wondered what it was. I didn't and wouldn't give any advice to her on her gymnastics - other than my usual have fun, I am proud of you. This wasn't a matter of thinking she should fix something that was causing a deduction when actually the coach was okay with it for other reasons.

 

[Aero]

If the child goes up into a handstand that is not fully locked at vertical, and then tries to "force" twisting they will land on or hit the beam. Sometimes a coach may knowingly need to instruct your child to do something that is a deduction, but the child will need to perform it that way for safety or progression reasons. This is just one example. They want the child to focus on another error, or to focus on completing the routine safely. If the parent jumps in and tells their child that they could have scored higher by doing xyz instead, then the coaching is undone. I'm sure you can see how this is a problem. Also, I have had parents tell their child things that are untrue, such as their child is getting a deduction because I stand between the bar on their tap swings (even if we did, I still would because I want to minimize the risk of their child breaking their neck. But it is not a deduction) or that if you go on a lower (allowable adjustment) setting you get a lower start value (also not true). This will cause their child to not trust the coach.

Let's not forget all the times where a coach will be trying to help an athlete fix a skill with a hierarchy of corrections. Basically, there are major corrections in technique and sometimes form that need to happen first, and the end result is that it ends up fixing a lot of the other little errors. For example, not getting a good block off the table in a front handspring causes the athlete to have to arch just to get over the table. Most of the time, the parent will notice the arch, and say, "you should try to come off the table straighter." However, what the coach is correcting is the block, because if the block is there and if it's good, the athlete won't need to arch. It's cause and effect.

"Coach the cause, and effect will be your slave!"

 

[lovegymnastics22]

We're at a meet. A girl does what looks like an impressive routine. Get's a lower score than some less impressive seeming routines. Parents are surprised. A girl in a higher level looks at the video and shows us where she had a major form deduction. So it didn't matter that it seemed like she held x skill for a super amazing time. Voila! mystery solved. There wasn't any drama about it.

Seriously. As parents we have to sit through this stuff 4-5 hours at a time, weekend after weekend, watching our children compete for a total of 4-5 minutes. I'm not complaining. But I don't see why it raises eyebrows that we'd want to be mildly informed to know what we are watching! I'm guessing that (like me) OP would be way too terrified to possibly approach their kids coach with this question for fear of forever being labeled a CGM just for asking -- so she came to this list. I think if parents want a little more information about the sport that consumes 12 or more hours of their 8YOs week, and many of their weekends, it shouldn't be assumed that suddenly means they've crossed some line...

 

[JoyAvenueMom]

I have spent the past three basketball seasons sitting next to my father in law at most of my son's games. Why? Because I didn't know anything about basketball and it was really hard to understand what was going on. My FIL understands the game very well, and has very patiently explained to me what is going on. I had zero interest in coaching my kid, and even less telling him what he did wrong. However, once I understood more of the game, I could make comments like, "you did a great job blocking out against that really big #30." Or "Nice job getting all those rebounds" and my son would just grin ear to ear. More importantly, I enjoy the games more. I'm naturally curious by nature, and it drives me crazy not to follow along. My approach to gymnastics has been largely the same. Unfortunately, no one in my family knows anything about this sport. So, I found this forum. I also asked questions of the parents of higher level gymnasts when there was an opportunity. I know more about the sport than a lot of moms (and less than some), but I don't compare myself to a coach or judge. It would make me crazy for Kipper or a team mate to get a "major" deduction and not be able to figure out what it was. I do wish there was more tolerance on this forum for parents just wanting to understand scoring.

 

[gymratmom]

Yes! Why is it so taboo for parents to want to understand the sport??? Is it like this with other sports?

 

[Ali'sMom]

Yes! Why is it so taboo for parents to want to understand the sport??? Is it like this with other sports?

I don't think it's taboo to understand, I just think some folks who have been in the sport for so long are just trying (trying) to say "Don't sweat the small stuff". But newbies (and some of us who are just totally neurotic) don't feel it is necessarily small.
I honestly don't think anyone ever means that we shouldn't be educated. But I'm sure some of our questions are interpreted by longtime coaches as that we are going to try to coach our girls, and I'm certain that sets off bells for some.
At least that's MY take on it

 

[Deleted member 18037]

I don't think it's taboo to understand, I just think some folks who have been in the sport for so long are just trying (trying) to say "Don't sweat the small stuff". But newbies (and some of us who are just totally neurotic) don't feel it is necessarily small.
I honestly don't think anyone ever means that we shouldn't be educated. But I'm sure some of our questions are interpreted by longtime coaches as that we are going to try to coach our girls, and I'm certain that sets off bells for some.
At least that's MY take on it

This a thousand times

 

[lovemygymnast]

Yes! Why is it so taboo for parents to want to understand the sport??? Is it like this with other sports?

I don't really think it is taboo, but I think what they were saying is just don't drive yourself nuts over it (not that you were). I know from experience that even though there are specific deductions for falls & such, that scoring is completely subjective based on the judge. I know this because my dd has had identical bar routines and scores have completely varied as well as her teammates. Was I trying to figure out why in my head? Yes, but I saw who the judge was on bars when my dd got her lowest score of the entire season with no falls & I knew the answer. This judge gives ridiculously low scores and is a complete perfectionist BUT is completely fair across the board. So, one season my dd got an 8.15 on bars (actually was the highest bar score the whole session) in L4 with this judge & she was 1st place. They have deductions that they can take full deductions or less, I guess she's taking full. I do try to understand the sport & making guesses on scores but ultimately, deductions just don't matter. It matters that they improve their skills & are having fun.

With that said, I'm THE worst gym mom & this sport may drive me to drink!!!!

 

[Ali'sMom]

With that said, I'm THE worst gym mom & this sport may drive me to drink!!!!

Well, when you decide, I'll be waiting for you with a cocktail!

 

[Deleted member 18037]

And to the coaches out there. If you took some time to explain to parents it would go a long way.

Once a year our coaches have a parents day. They set the expectations. Let's us coach. The importance of conditioning. Being on time. The usual stuff.

And they take you through each event on your child's level as a group. They (actually the girls) show what the moves are supposed to look like and what they judges are looking for. And they show what the problems are and what the typical deductions are. Things like yeah legs are high but that low belly is where the angle is judged. How moves impact others. How things that seem minor are a building block for what's ahead. They take us through their conditioning and let us know, what it is for, again with what is to come. It really heads off a lot questions, concerns for the parents. We can ask questions, take notes, video to our hearts content.

I missed it the first two years as I had to work. Finally got to the meeting this year. I will never miss another.

Truly this would be well worth a coaches time to give to parents.

And the reality is the more you watch the more you notice. Bent arms on kips vs straight. The height of a cast, position over the bar, a bent belly.

As you watch you learn how the kid with the great tumbling run but whose form is a bit sloppy doesn't place as well as the kid who had an obvious bobble on a landing but everything else was spot on. Or a wobble on a cartwheel on the beam without a single wiggle elsewhere beats some ones clean cartwheel with lots of wobbles else where.

And when it comes to gymnastics unlike a sport like basketball/football. The routines are over in a minute. By the time someone were to explain one move, the whole routine is done. If find I learn and "see" more when I watch other kids. I can then look at mine more objectively.

 

[cbifoja]

I don't think it's taboo to understand, I just think some folks who have been in the sport for so long are just trying (trying) to say "Don't sweat the small stuff". But newbies (and some of us who are just totally neurotic) don't feel it is necessarily small.
I honestly don't think anyone ever means that we shouldn't be educated. But I'm sure some of our questions are interpreted by longtime coaches as that we are going to try to coach our girls, and I'm certain that sets off bells for some.
At least that's MY take on it

I think this is correct. But when you're getting the "don't sweat the small stuff" it can come across as dismissive...especially if you're geared to be someone who likes to understand trivia and minutiae. It feels the same way as when someone comes and asks a question about their five year old and then get told a hundred times that "she's FIVE"....like the parent doesn't know that. It feels condescending. Or my personal favorite...."it's JUST level 2/3/compulsories."

The thing is that we all care about our kids at all stages of their lives, not just when a coach decides that it's appropriate for us to do so.

 

[Ali'sMom]

I think this is correct. But when you're getting the "don't sweat the small stuff" it can come across as dismissive...especially if you're geared to be someone who likes to understand trivia and minutiae.

I like that description better than describing myself as "neurotic" - I'm going to use that for now on!

 

[Flyaway]

I think this is correct. But when you're getting the "don't sweat the small stuff" it can come across as dismissive...especially if you're geared to be someone who likes to understand trivia and minutiae. It feels the same way as when someone comes and asks a question about their five year old and then get told a hundred times that "she's FIVE"....like the parent doesn't know that. It feels condescending. Or my personal favorite...."it's JUST level 2/3/compulsories."

The thing is that we all care about our kids at all stages of their lives, not just when a coach decides that it's appropriate for us to do so.

Exactly. Obviously with time and experience comes wisdom. I don't disregard that. But it's important for the experience to not disregard the feeling of just starting out either. Doesn't really matter in the long run if I don't understand the scoring? Nope. Does that fact make me less inclined to understand? Nope.

 

[flowerchild]

I have 3 kids, in a number of sports. Only in Gymnastics does it seem that the professionals want to alienate the parents and exclude them.

 

[B.Gold]

I think it comes from perspective. The coaches who come across as "dismissive" of parents who are "learning" rules and deductions on this board tend to be optional coaches. And, this sounds harsh, but they don't care what your kid is scoring in compulsories. My observation is they want your child to master the basics, get competition experience, and most importantly GET TO OPTIONALS. So all they are saying is, "if we don't 'care'.... Why should you?"

As a parent, I get it, I cared very much, and learned the rules, but looking back from this spot at L9 to those Old-L4 scores, they are meaningless. It was more meaningful, to my dd goals of today, that she continued to progress, gained the necessary skills and learned how to compete. And I take to heart what Dunno has stated on this forum before... Scores don't matter until L10.

I'll never forget what an awesome, well-meaning coach kindly said to me after my dd's first (old)level 4 meet 5 years ago. One of my dd's teammates did phenomenal and I was marveling about that with this coach. The coach said matter of factly, "Nobody cares about L4.... Nobody". I have giggled about the harshness of this line over the years, but now, from my L9 perspective, the meaning has become more clear. She wasn't saying, "we don't care about your kids competing L4". She was saying, "don't sweat the small stuff."

 

[cbifoja]

I do get the idea of perspective. DD is an L8 but she still smiles thinking about being a state vault champion and winning all-around at various meets, even as a compulsory. I guess it's how you define "meaningful". Was getting a 9.8 on old L3 vault indicative of future success? No, not really given how it was just that dive roll vault, but my DD has always considered vault to be her thing even way back then. Yeah, it's probably all just psychological but so what...much of this crazy sport is mental! LOL

Please know that I have all the respect in the world for Dunno even with his sometime abrupt, no nonsense posting style. He has been willing to give me and so many other CBers access to his brain and experience and that is invaluable. I also don't consider him one of the "anti-parent" CB coaches. My point is just that it only becomes "small stuff" after the fact. But no matter how much I know that, I still care very much about how she does at L8 because that is our "present". It's a big deal to her, so I'm going to care even if these L8 scores will mean nothing to anyone else in the future....because they mean something to her right now.

 

[Canadian_gym_mom]

I have 3 kids, in a number of sports. Only in Gymnastics does it seem that the professionals want to alienate the parents and exclude them.

But gymnastics is soooo different from any other sport. You must see that. My son played rep hockey and now plays rep baseball. I think in the USA you call it travel team.

He practices twice a week for 2 hrs each time. In season, they also will have 2 games a week. He's 10, and has been playing ball for 3 years.

Dd trains 25 hrs per week. She competes what, 5 or 6 times a year? For a total of 5 minutes when you add up the times of their actual routines? She's 12 and has been in gymnastics since she was 18 months old. Competitive since she was 6.

Im just saying that there is so much more to this sport than any other. So many fine details and techniques that coaches can't possibly be expected to explain each of them to every parent in the gym. Imagine if a coach has 10 girls, explaining to each of the 10 parents the minute details of all 4 of their routines and what every deduction was? Why isn't it enough that they explain to the child, the one who has the ability to actually do something about it?

I think the other difference is that, for example in baseball, we can go play catch. We can go to the field and hit some balls, run bases, etc. I can't just go do some vaults or swing bars with my daughter.

I know this is going to be an unpopular opinion but it comes from 6 years of this sport. And trust me, in the beginning this was NOT the way i felt. I think this comes with time and experience.