MAG Skills questions for L4-5: p-bars handstand & ROBHS

[curlymop]

I don't like second-guessing coaches, but I am a BIG believer in the handstand roll, and it seems like your little guy would be fine with another year of 4 where he can stretch himself a little bit but not feel pressured. That being said, it looks like we will have some 7 year old L5s this year (though also some second-year 6 year old L4s who competed last year after turning 6, yikes!). As long as he doesn't care much about meet results, the level he competes matters far less than what he is training.

Level 5 is a funny level. As things have settled down with the stricter age limits, it seems like you see a huge range at L5, all the way from kids who look like they're going to die when they throw the single BHS to kids who are third years going for gold in the L5 Olympics because the coaches prefer to compete them there while getting the basics immaculately clean. Looking at scores, L6 is a bit that way as well, but the top isn't as high (because kids move up to L7 and hang out there waiting to age up into optionals) and there just aren't as many guys at the low end.

LOL at L5 Olympics. We actually saw some of that at L4 in one meet last year. 12 & 13 year olds at L4 going to handstand on every single p-bar swing. But the same gym had some amazing 6 year olds as well, so I guess they know what they're doing.

 

[sce]

I think it's just because the L4 routines are so basic. And also because he keeps forgetting that DS is only 6. It's been a couple of months since I brought it up, but when I mention that he can still compete as a 6 year old, he always says "Really? I thought he was 7..."

Does the coach remember that they set age as of Sept 1? (Not counting the exception.) There are enough bonuses in the L4 routines that they are not so basic, especially as it gives him time to build his skills for level 5 rather than being able to barely do the skills.

 

[curlymop]

Does the coach remember that they set age as of Sept 1? (Not counting the exception.) There are enough bonuses in the L4 routines that they are not so basic, especially as it gives him time to build his skills for level 5 rather than being able to barely do the skills.

He does. He just doesn't have all the kids' birthdays catalogued in his brain, so he forgets that DS has a late fall birthday, making him one of the few kids who can compete as a 6 year old for two years. Really, this all goes back to last year, when DS should have trained with the team without competing. Coach said he could compete since his birthday was just in time, and I didn't know enough about the sport to question it. I will say that this coach has had boys do very well at L9-10, so maybe this all works out in the end. But I don't know if my kid will stay with it for that long, and I want it to be a good experience for him now.

 

[skschlag]

But I don't know if my kid will stay with it for that long, and I want it to be a good experience for him now.

I agree with this completely. Our coach pushed one of our boys through quickly. he started level 5 (before the change) as a 6 yo, did 3 years, pushed to 6 then 7, and had 3 very hard years in a row. Never ever placing, falling on lots of events, just struggling in general. He got down on himself, and sadly, this year, with a push to 8, ended up quitting. I truly think that if he had been allowed to move more slowly, he would still be in the sport.

It is important that they are having fun and loving what they do. Otherwise, it is not worth their time.

 

[2G1B]

I am seeing that boys quit a lit more than girls. My ds's new team has dropped from 10 to since July, the boys just choose to do other sports. Last year his team dropped from to 4 - 2 quit and two went to other gyms (ds and one other). The boys that I have seen totally quit have been the boys who were struggling.

I get the impression that men's gymnastics is really different in different areas. In our area, even level 4 is pretty darn serious with no one taking top 3 ( or more) spots without bonuses. At level 5 last year my ds had a tough year. He was missing the kip; but had all other skills. He had 2 bonuses on pommel, 1 on high bar, 3 on floor, I can't remember if he had 1 on pbars or not, same with rings. He was lucky to be middle of the pack. I think that his highest placement for the season was maybe 5th. And that was for an event. I think his highest AA was 7th.

 

[2G1B]

Oops, his current team has dropped from 10 to 6. His old team dropped from 8 to 4.

 

[2G1B]

Argh. I totally got distracted and didn't say why that was relevant. Anyway, I think that if the boys are being pushed through, and not really shining at their new levels, not feeling successful, then they might be more likely to quit. I had my son change teams this year mostly because he needed a better team environment (he needed to fit in better with his team mates, and needed them to be closer to his age). I also was happy that he is repeating 5 at this gym rather than them considering moving him up to 6. He was not ready to be successful at 6. I think if he had stayed with those boys and moved up to a level where he wasn't going to place well that he likely would have quit. For my ds, he says he doesn't care how he places. But he has never had a meet where he didn't place at all. I suspect he might care if that happened (and honestly, it would if he did level 6 this year).

 

[profmom]

Around here, the guys on the podium for L5 were guys with no fewer than two bonuses, and AA guys on the podium tended to be missing at most 2-3 bonuses across all the events. But if they can just stick it out, the numbers do thin out higher up.

 

[sbonham]

One of the best drills I've found for developing core strength AND shoulder alignment control for SWING HANDSTANDS on P-bars is swinging dumb-bells... forward (towards the planche side) AND rearward (about shoulder-blade high). In two or three cycles the gymnast should be able to get the weights to about 45° above shoulder height on the forward swing. At that point all they need to do is KEEP the core tight and open the shoulders - pushing upward (while elevating (shrugging upward) the shoulder girdle and the shoulders simply "click" into a locked-out extended position. Then repeat - swing down/backward and back to "the handstand." Reps of 5-10 for starters. Start with each dumbbell about 1/10 of their body weight. The guys MUST understand that they do NOT need to swing (dumbbells or their body!) all the ways to the handstand - only to that 45° position and then "click" - and learn to fight with their hands and wrists ONLY at that point. No arching. No elbow or shoulder checks. I absolutely agree that the shoulder roll (and not necessarily from a handstand) is a required skill prior to attempting swing handstands. Lastly, no... with the bars all the way up - a coach (unless he is 6'6" or taller) will not be able to spot/save a poorly executed swing to handstand.

 

[2G1B]

Around here, the guys on the podium for L5 were guys with no fewer than two bonuses, and AA guys on the podium tended to be missing at most 2-3 bonuses across all the events. But if they can just stick it out, the numbers do thin out higher up.

I'd say this was true in our area too. The two events that ds placed on last year were pommel and floor, which he had ore bonuses in. Sometimes he'd get a low place on p bars and rings; but generally it was just his two strong events.

 

[sce]

I agree that in my area bonuses even in level 4 were necessary for placing high. Especially at 6yo, there is no reason to rush ahead when the skills for the next level are not solid. Doing level 4 again with lots of bonuses will allow him to feel successful and be ready for level 5. Being a 7yo level 5 will still put him on the way young end next year.

 

[gracyomalley]

In our area, even the "top" boys seem to do 2 years most early levels - at first (coming from the girls gym perspective) I thought this was sandbagging, but I now see that with the bonus system, and with the way a boys skills/strength change so much in early teens (as well as the fact that they don't hit fears and difficulties at puberty like so many girls) there really are good reasons to take it slow. Especially because boys can skip levels at any point so maturing a little at L4-5 then skipping up a level or 2 if ready is done often.

The only part of the system NOT built to accommodate the boys natural maturation rate is the age divisions at nationals being limited to the younger boys at level 8/9...something I totally don't get? (There are so few boys at this level I see no logic in limiting the ones going to nationals based upon age rather than skill/scores....perhaps there is a region with a plethora of young, high level men's gymnasts, but I doubt it! ) But even with another year of L4 your DS would be very young for L5 next year, so this isn't an issue.

Are there other kids doing L4 this year? Could it be the coach doesn't want to run L4 for one kid? That does happen sometimes. Plus, for some kids its a bummer to not compete with friends. DS elder will be alone at L7 this year - but you can bet that at age 14 there was no way he'd do L6 just to be with friends, and he wasn't quite ready to skip from L5 to L8....but for my 10 year old the friend factor is very important still.

 

[profmom]

What I have heard about the age thing (and this is coming from another mom, so take with the usual grain of salt) is that the young phenoms used to be able to level up just like the girls and would take those nationals slots at L9, and then the older guys wouldn't have as much of a chance to get there. Now at least if a guy is a little later to reach puberty and becomes super awesome as a 14 year old, he won't get bumped by some 11 year old upstart.

 

[curlymop]

Wow, lots of great perspectives. Thank you! This turned into a much more interesting conversation than it was supposed to be. As a side note, last night his ROBHS looked better than I had ever seen it, so maybe there's more progress there than I thought.

Are there other kids doing L4 this year? Could it be the coach doesn't want to run L4 for one kid? That does happen sometimes. Plus, for some kids its a bummer to not compete with friends. DS elder will be alone at L7 this year - but you can bet that at age 14 there was no way he'd do L6 just to be with friends, and he wasn't quite ready to skip from L5 to L8....but for my 10 year old the friend factor is very important still.

Yes, there are a few other L4s, one of whom trained with DS last year but didn't compete because he turned 6 too late in the year. So it's not like he'd be alone or be the only kid from last year's group who didn't move up. Either way, he'll be competing with kids who train with him.

I hate second-guessing the coach, but I think this is just an issue of him not knowing my kid as well as I do. DS has been making some concerning comments about how he's "no good" at gymnastics, which is just not true. When I dig deeper, it all comes back to him being nervous about competition. Coach doesn't see that side of him, so he thinks as long as most of the skills are there, he can move up. I think that if we don't let him compete at a level where he's more comfortable, he'll get so down on himself that he'll want to quit.

 

[sce]

I hate second-guessing the coach, but I think this is just an issue of him not knowing my kid as well as I do. DS has been making some concerning comments about how he's "no good" at gymnastics, which is just not true. When I dig deeper, it all comes back to him being nervous about competition. Coach doesn't see that side of him, so he thinks as long as most of the skills are there, he can move up. I think that if we don't let him compete at a level where he's more comfortable, he'll get so down on himself that he'll want to quit.

Aww, sweet kid. He's just a little guy. Sometimes the coach does not know what's going on with a kid. Send him an e-mail sharing with him what your ds has been expressing to you. Then suggest that repeating level 4 might boost his confidence. As well, I've had to remind coaches to give positive feedback a long with corrections. My ds used to feel he was no good, because he was only hearing corrections. His coach worked to mix up his feedback, which led to all the boys having a better perspective of their gymnastics.

 

[gracyomalley]

What I have heard about the age thing (and this is coming from another mom, so take with the usual grain of salt) is that the young phenoms used to be able to level up just like the girls and would take those nationals slots at L9, and then the older guys wouldn't have as much of a chance to get there. Now at least if a guy is a little later to reach puberty and becomes super awesome as a 14 year old, he won't get bumped by some 11 year old upstart.

Actually the older boys can't even qualify for nationals until L10 - they are considered too old (this is what I don't get - having a daughter, I am used to the younger phenoms ...)

 

[skschlag]

11-12 yo can qualify at 8, 13-14 yo at 9, 15-18 at 10. But I did like when they had the older ages at level 9 too. Kind of makes the boys push harder to get to 10...

 

[gracyomalley]

In our Region, most Level 8s are older than 12, many 9s are out of this age as well, etc....with so few programs and coaches able to even train these levels, its a huge feat for a kid to make it to L8 at all. There are 2 boys level 8 and up in our half of the state, and there were about 5 L10s in the state last year...for perspective. I can't imagine those boys working any harder than they do - with so little in the way of resources. I still just don't see why the boys Nationals are so limited - just when their strength is hitting and they can start to progress rapidly, the system tells them they are too old...

Granted, for my kids this isn't really an issue - DS older is 14 and L7 (will likely be L8 next year if he doesn't have to quit for other things in high school) - can only make it to Nationals if he sticks it out until L10 -(maybe as a specialist - he vaults a tsuk and front handspring front pike already, working on Yurchenko) which is fine, as its JUST a sport, but had a friend who started late and quit this summer at L8 when he learned that no matter how good he did if he couldn't jump from L7 to L10 he had no chance of Nationals....he was 15.

I suspect I have no idea what the big gym regions are like for men's gym - but I still don't see the point - even in girls with all the pushing to move up before puberty, etc, its not that common to be done with L8 by age 13.....just saying!

 

[sbonham]

My 2 cents... regarding moving up USAG Levels

Guys can be challenged at almost any level if their goal is MAXIMAL performance. A level 4 routine performed by Sam Mikulak or Koichi Uchimura would look incredibly different from what most L4s do. The same is true for the other compulsory levels. So - when should they move??? My opinion is that they move when they "master" a level. To me that means a scoring 90% of a maximal score including all Bonus opportunities. Here's a table of those AA and event average scores for mastery (90%) and sub-mastery (80 & 70%) respectively.

There are different scores here because there are more +.5 Bonus opportunities as levels advance (2 bonus ops for L4 on each event, 3 for L5, 4 for L6&7).

If any event average score is below the 80% level (PH for a common instance) moving the gymnast up a level is likely to exacerbate problems on that event.

Should there be exceptions? Of course!

Kurt Thomas (originator of the Flair on PH) was interviewed and when asked what motivated him he replied "SUCCESS! Nothing succeeds like success." If Kurt couldn't hit a skill 10/10 it didn't go in a routine. And if he couldn't hit 10/10 he and his coaches found a progression that would lead to the desired goal that he could do successfully to make progress and stay positive.

I see too many kids moving up levels in boys gymnastics before they are at levels of mastery. This leads to lower scores, more failures (at meets and practice), injuries, frustrations for coaches, gymnasts and parents and the kids find other sports/challenges were they can succeed. We need to back-up and let the kids enjoy success after success - and NOT be pressured to graduate to levels prematurely.

 

[gracyomalley]

I agree with the concept of mastery - but I will say that in our whole lowly region, generally less than 10 kids would move up each year with these standards! (at least at L5 last year - where my boys were, one of whom would have hit the 90% had he remembered to put his stirrups on for rings...the other has a HB that really should not be mentionned....but both otherwise generally in high 9s on worst events at least...). The older boy has learned all his L7 routines this summer, and at least half of them with 1-2 bonuses - the younger all his L6 with the exception of one skill on rings. Younger boy expected to take 2 years at L6 to polish and get the bonuses, older already working lots of L8+ skills. Neither expected to do gym in college, Nationals, etc....but make regionals each year....so top half of their groups.

Again I don't understand the idea of bonuses and mastery at lower levels (which I agree with) but expecting any gymnast with a chance to be good to make it to L8 before age 13? System seems to work against itself a bit....