WAG Strength to Weight Ratio

[BlairBob]

My weakest L4's often could only do an L for 5 seconds and a hollow hold for 20-30s.

The likelyhood that they would make a kip is about the same as myself making a standing double back. Maybe if God sent an angel to spot them invisibly. Maybe if they had perfect technique with the mechanics of the kip. Unfortunately at this age typically they are just not tuned to be neuroefficient in the action of a kip due to not enough reps in training. Quite often an older, bigger gymnast has tried many more attempts and so their bodies are much more efficent at moving in said action even if they are weak.

 

[Deleted member D3987]

Strength and Conditioning tends to be poorer in WAG than MAG in my experience and even then it's typically poor. Especially in the US, where most coaches have no S&C education other than tidbits they piece from when they trained and going to clinics and whatever BS they adhere to in globogyms. What really prevails is whatever is cute and shiny in a globogym. Many gymnastics coaches also spend time as personal trainers generally adhering to some watered down bodybuilding programming that is the bread and butter of Globogyms.

The S&C at most colleges is far better than what you'll see in most club gyms. Obviously the elite club gyms have a good idea of what's necessary but a lot of if it is natural talent will flourish no matter what you do. A sort of meat grinder approach. If gymnasts get a problem or injury, they send them to a PT and hope for the best.

Seriously, the S&C education for gymnastics coaches is far more thorough in most countries than the U.S.

Go around and start asking gymnastics coaches if they have read the Russian literature on S&C and see how many blank faces you get. Or hell, even the literature in our countries which has been pretty much covered by the Russians years ago.



Sorry Dunno, but this isn't even technobabble. It's a nice dream but where do I start on refuting it?

Certain parts of the lower body are more predisposed to slow twitch muscle fibers as well in the back.

Gymnastic routines are at most 90 seconds. This makes it primarily an anaerobic activity much like the 400m sprint. Except that the sprint does not have downtime like FX/BB routines do with lower intensity poses and dance skills which allow the body to recover between tumbling passes (even if the dance movements are continuous they are still not as taxing as the tumbling passes).

What gymnasts typically need is explosive strength and strength endurance. Neither of these are "cardio" as they do not primarily depend on the oxidative energy system. That system is working during routine execution but the bulk of energy and power comes from ATP-phosphagen and the glycolytic energy system.

Just because you tax the lower body does not mean that you will experience growth and strength increases in the upper body. Now tumbling does work everything from head to toe, but weakenesses in one part of the body will shine and have to be addresses. You can't simply just keep doing what you are doing and pray for it to get better.

Ideally a gym's S&C programming would be sufficient that nothing else be need done. Unfortunately as I said, it tends to be a lot worse in WAG than MAG and even then it's poor. This isn't China, Japan, Russia or many other countries where a foundation of strength is the building block of it's gymnastics program.

i'm not sure what you said has something to do with what i posted. but what you stated is true to a degree. i simply meant to leave the conditioning in the gym with trained people. not chin up bars at home. and i can tell you that MAG has nothing on WAG in the conditioning department. many of us have conditioning programs that are from a collaborative effort both here and abroad and comes from sports scientists. you seem to forget that this years olympic team had only 1 american coach. a bulgarian, a russian, a romanian, chinese coached the rest. i think the girls were pretty well conditioned for the event. so i'm not sure what you're talking about on that.

 

[txgymfan]

Danell said that the girls leg workout was difficult to him. I don't have an exact quote but it was on his twitter feed. He did say that the guys do much more upper body work.

A little OT but the 08 mens alternates worked out in Bejing and said that other athletes could not come close to doing thier ab workout.

 

[Kiwi]

I don't think Iwannacoach was referring to the olympic team, but rather the average gym. His comments match what I've seen here in NZ. I think we have a lot of room for improvement, using up-to-date sports science rather than coaches repeating how they were trained. Of course, I have little experience in this area, so maybe I'm being a little harsh (speaking as a parent of a WAG gymnast whose coach pulled her hamstring last year).

 

[Danica76]

I appreciate your input dunno. I do not believe that my daughter's overall outcome will be dictated by her using a chin up bar at home, so I am not sure what led you to deduce that I feel that way. My view on her training is not that narrow or short sighted. Nor is it because I want her to do it. I respect that you have years of experience and knowledge. But, if she is going to condition because of her own desire to do so, I don't think it is inappropriate to ask for advice to assist her in making good choices that will target her weaknesses. I would never tell her to do something that is not good for her or that would interfere with her training. Which is why I come here and ask questions. And none of this is being done without the knowledge of the HC, btw. I often don't post on the main board about many things because of the ineveitable lecture I will get, but in this case I was willing to deal with the fallout.

leave the conditioning to the gym. the human science part of what we do determines the athletes physical outcome. not an at home chin up bar. and there is a transfer from upper to lower and lower to upper when proper conditioning is done. in the final analysis, and after many years of training and conditioning, the body will be in a fitness balance. gymnasts use their entire body to perform every single thing that they do. and because gymnastics is more a buttocks and leg activity, more conditioning/cardio is done for this segment of the anatomy. and when done correctly, there is a transfer to the upper body and it is conditioned as well.

an excellent example of this i'll submit as a question and we'll see who answers it correctly: a gymnast has a pulled and aggravated hamstring muscle. if not rested and conditioned properly, what part of the body is more likely than not to become injured?

 

[mommyof1]

Just because you tax the lower body does not mean that you will experience growth and strength increases in the upper body. Now tumbling does work everything from head to toe, but weakenesses in one part of the body will shine and have to be addresses. You can't simply just keep doing what you are doing and pray for it to get better.

Ideally a gym's S&C programming would be sufficient that nothing else be need done. Unfortunately as I said, it tends to be a lot worse in WAG than MAG and even then it's poor. This isn't China, Japan, Russia or many other countries where a foundation of strength is the building block of it's gymnastics program.

So what is a parent to do with a kid who needs to build explosive strength and isn't getting the right conditioning (or ANY conditioning, as the case may be) in the gym, short of switching gyms? Are sprints or the type of "plyometric" exercises commonly done by runners (power skipping, high knees, "butt kickers," hopping on one foot, running backwards) going to be helpful? Are there any other safe, simple, fun exercises that can be done at home by younger gymnasts at the lower levels?

 

[Deleted member D3987]

I appreciate your input dunno. I do not believe that my daughter's overall outcome will be dictated by her using a chin up bar at home, so I am not sure what led you to deduce that I feel that way. My view on her training is not that narrow or short sighted. Nor is it because I want her to do it. I respect that you have years of experience and knowledge. But, if she is going to condition because of her own desire to do so, I don't think it is inappropriate to ask for advice to assist her in making good choices that will target her weaknesses. I would never tell her to do something that is not good for her or that would interfere with her training. Which is why I come here and ask questions. And none of this is being done without the knowledge of the HC, btw. I often don't post on the main board about many things because of the ineveitable lecture I will get, but in this case I was willing to deal with the fallout.

my post was a generality. it was not directed AT you. understand? i know that sometimes i'm misunderstood. hard for me personally to convey context in this type of format sometimes.

 

[Deleted member D3987]

I don't think Iwannacoach was referring to the olympic team, but rather the average gym. His comments match what I've seen here in NZ. I think we have a lot of room for improvement, using up-to-date sports science rather than coaches repeating how they were trained. Of course, I have little experience in this area, so maybe I'm being a little harsh (speaking as a parent of a WAG gymnast whose coach pulled her hamstring last year).

i don't think it was iwannacoach.

 

[ollieblueeyes]

So what is a parent to do with a kid who needs to build explosive strength and isn't getting the right conditioning (or ANY conditioning, as the case may be) in the gym, short of switching gyms? Are sprints or the type of "plyometric" exercises commonly done by runners (power skipping, high knees, "butt kickers," hopping on one foot, running backwards) going to be helpful? Are there any other safe, simple, fun exercises that can be done at home by younger gymnasts at the lower levels?

My girls do all of those things as well as bear crawls, crab walks, suicides (are they still called that?) and many 'fun' forms of conditioning....

 

[iwannacoach]

i don't think it was iwannacoach.

Who me? I never have no opininion, no time, no how.....but no, it wasn't me....unless I could pick up a few likes for taking credit for whatever it was that I didn't say.

And dunno.....when you were talking about fitness balance, were you saying that all body areas and muscle groups need to be optimized to allow the body's parts to move in concert with one another, ie the lower half won't be able to contribute to the upper half's mission if the middle part is weak or not aligned as straight as possible. Or were you inferring that the hamstring/gluteal set can over power the quads and flexors causing knee problems....yada-yada-yada.

 

[Deleted member D3987]

actually, both. you are absolutely correct.

 

[Kiwi]

i don't think it was iwannacoach.

Duh! You're right, it was Blairbob. But whoever it was, I liked his post!

 

[Danica76]

Yes, I understand where you are coming from. It is difficult to express precise meaning via the internet, so thanks for taking the time to further clarify your intent.

my post was a generality. it was not directed AT you. understand? i know that sometimes i'm misunderstood. hard for me personally to convey context in this type of format sometimes.