WAG Strength to Weight Ratio

[Danica76]

I have a question for coaches about strenth to weight ratio and body type.

My DD is 8 y.o. (will turn 9 in Dec.), weighs about 70 lbs. I am not positive about her height. At her check up last year she was 4'1. I think she has probably grown another inch, at least.

Anyway, she has very, very muscular legs. And I don't mean that they're lean and muscular, they are thick and muscular. hen she stands to the side, you can see the curve of her hamstrings. She is very dense. On the flip side, she has decent abdominal strength and arm strength - she does the same conditioning as the other girls on the team. But, what I have noticed (I have been brought on as a PT coach at the gym), is that even though she might have better ab/arm strength than some of the other girls, she has a harder time getting her toes to the bar in leg lifts, she has always struggled with making a pullover look easy, etc. She is learning to kip right now, and while the extension on the glide is good (but could definitely still improve), she has a hard time getting her toes to the bar fast enough. I feel that she is bottom heavy (not that she is heavy - lol) and that her strength is disproportionate.

So basically, my question is this. If you have a gymnast who carries the majority of their strength and weight in their legs, would you condition their upper body more? What would be the smartest way for a kiddo with this body type to condition? My DD stretches and conditions at home probably twice a week. If she wants to condition at home, I would like to steer her in a direction that is beneficial for her and that will be of help. We do have one of those over the door chin up bars.

Thanks!

 

[BlairBob]

Test her hamstring flexibility in a seated pike stretch with a rounded and straight back (straight will stretch hamstrings more). Poor hamstring flexibility hampers the ability to bring the toes to the bar. Mine isn't great but it's gotten good enough. I'm 5'1 165ish and can do about a dozen hanging leg lifts. Maybe 1 or 2 from L if I cheat and stick out my head. L hold is probably 60-90s but used to be around 120 if I really wanted to abuse myself.

I've got big fat legs too, mainly from barbell training. Squats.

Most girls are never strong enough for bars. Most, mind you.

She could probably be stronger in her abdominal area. Build up the L-sit or L-hang to 30s. As well work a toes to bar hang/V-hang towards 10-15 seconds. Working on the ability to hold a long hollow hold of at least 1 minute should be prioritized. Perhaps 90s or 2 minutes.

My rule of thumb for hollow hold is:

1 minute for L6 and under, preferably just L5 and under

2 minutes for L6-8.

3 minutes for L9 and above.

Don't consider it a crutch and excuse. Just work on getting stronger. There are plenty of stocky gymnasts that have done well on bars...besides a lot of female collegiate gymnasts.

 

[Danica76]

Thanks for the info, BlairBob. She is definitely stocky, but doesn't have an ounce of fat around the middle. And she LOVES bars, even if she isn't naturally shaped for them. She very agressive and determined and never complains during the bar rotation - it is her favorite event. I always play up how awesome her leg strength is and it's always the first thing people comment on when we are at the pool or the indoor climbing wall. She just needs to balance it all out.

Test her hamstring flexibility in a seated pike stretch with a rounded and straight back (straight will stretch hamstrings more). Poor hamstring flexibility hampers the ability to bring the toes to the bar. Mine isn't great but it's gotten good enough. I'm 5'1 165ish and can do about a dozen hanging leg lifts. Maybe 1 or 2 from L if I cheat and stick out my head. L hold is probably 60-90s but used to be around 120 if I really wanted to abuse myself.

I've got big fat legs too, mainly from barbell training. Squats.

Most girls are never strong enough for bars. Most, mind you.

She could probably be stronger in her abdominal area. Build up the L-sit or L-hang to 30s. As well work a toes to bar hang/V-hang towards 10-15 seconds. Working on the ability to hold a long hollow hold of at least 1 minute should be prioritized. Perhaps 90s or 2 minutes.

My rule of thumb for hollow hold is:

1 minute for L6 and under, preferably just L5 and under

2 minutes for L6-8.

3 minutes for L9 and above.

Don't consider it a crutch and excuse. Just work on getting stronger. There are plenty of stocky gymnasts that have done well on bars...besides a lot of female collegiate gymnasts.

 

[iwannacoach]

I think BlairBob has it pretty well figured out, but of course there is always sommething to add. It could be that her hip flexors are too tight, and the limited range of motion is keeping her from developing strength in the flexors and low abdominal muscles. Working on L-holds, L-hangs, and pike holds, along with increased flexibility in the low back, gluteals, hamstrings, and calves will improve hear ability to pike. These improvements will be incomplete, as she will always have to work harder to initiate the pike from an extended position if her hip flexors are too tight/too weak and are interfering with her ability to truely build stength in the low abs.

If you have her lay down on her back with her knees and hips straight you'll probably see a 2-3 inch gap between the small of her back and the floor. Watch her as she tries to eliminate that gap. You'll likely see her knees bend and an angle in her hips. I could try to explain why this is limiting her pike motion, but that could take a few extra paragraphs. Suffice it to say that nobody is strong at the limits of their range of motion, and with tight hip flexors she's at her limit before full extension. The tight hip flexors will also defeat low ab strength work by transferring the work to her upper abs.

Try a two week concentration on flexibility in her quads and hip flexors and see if that low back gap is getting smaller. She should continue intense hip flexor work until the gap is about 1/2 inch. You will likely notice a correlation between the gap reduction and increased ability to move from extended positions into the pike.

Let me know if you need some hip flexor and quadricepts exercises.....I have a few that are pretty good that you've likely not seen before.

 

[Danica76]

Thanks for your response iwannacoach Her hamstring flex is as follows (done with pointed toes, backs of knees pressed into floor): straight back: halfway down, hands on floor alongside legs, finger tips at ankles. Rounded back: 3/4 way down, fingers at end of feet. Tight hamstrings run in the family on my side, as do muscular legs...flexibility was always something I had to work hard at when I danced. So this is an area she can improve for sure. We've been holding pike flex with good form for 60 sec., walking the hands out further every 15 seconds. We do 3 sets of these. She also presses into.pike from a squat, hands flat & next to her feet. She cannot get her legs all the way straight. This stretch is much more difficult for her.

I tested the lower back gap & I'd say she's about 1.5 inches from the floor. To fill in the gap, she rolls her hips under, but bent her knees slightly before I told her she had to maintain her shape.

We did L hangs - she can do about 5 sec before her legs drop. V hangs - 3 sec before she curls her toes under the bar Hollow hang is about 25 sec. She has a heck of a time engaging those lower abs. How many sets of these should we do? I have been correcting her shape in all of these & helping her a bit (chin up, neutral head position, putting my hand underneath her feet in L hang).

So there's the data I collected And I'd be happy to hear any further assessment & exercise recommendations! Especially those quad & hip flexor ones you mentoned, iwannacoach!

 

[Kiwi]

She sounds quite similar to my DD! Please post your special hip flexor and quad stretches, Iwannacoach, I'm very interested to see them!

 

[BlairBob]

We did L hangs - she can do about 5 sec before her legs drop. V hangs - 3 sec before she curls her toes under the bar

I'm gonna sound like a jerk here, it's not something I would say to a kid, probably not even a parent but I would to another coach.

Her L is weak. Whether it's her hip flexors or her abs, it's weak. If you do not have a strong L, whether in hang or support (it tends to be harder in support by a bit); you are going to be poor on bars...and probably other stuff requiring ab strength like pike press HS, rope climb in pike, pike saltos or double pike saltos or standing back in pike.

Hollow Hang? I meant hollow hold on floor. 25 seconds is not strong enough IMO. I tend to focus on strength a bit too much but it's easier than technique.

It also sounds like she has tight hamstrings. Honestly, you can do all the sitting pike stretches you want; but I prefer to manually stretch kids with tight hamstrings. I have them lay on their back and basically I compress their pike...and they often cry and try to pull out my hair.

 

[BlairBob]

I would have try about 2-3 minutes of Hollow holds. You could make it really complicated and use % of max as hold times or you can just give her a stop watch and say do 2-3 minutes at your own pace. Come down when form breaks (lower back starts to arch off floor).

Same with L, I would only give her about 30 seconds to 1 minute of volume at this time. 10 sets of 3 seconds is more than enough for her at this time.

As well do seated leg lifts where you sit in pike. Place your hands somewhere on the side of your thighs or ankles, lean over and lift your heels off the floor. You can do these as holds or lifts. Just do a lot. 30-50 lifts or 30 seconds to 2 minutes of hold time.

 

[Deleted member D3987]

leave the conditioning to the gym. the human science part of what we do determines the athletes physical outcome. not an at home chin up bar. and there is a transfer from upper to lower and lower to upper when proper conditioning is done. in the final analysis, and after many years of training and conditioning, the body will be in a fitness balance. gymnasts use their entire body to perform every single thing that they do. and because gymnastics is more a buttocks and leg activity, more conditioning/cardio is done for this segment of the anatomy. and when done correctly, there is a transfer to the upper body and it is conditioned as well.

an excellent example of this i'll submit as a question and we'll see who answers it correctly: a gymnast has a pulled and aggravated hamstring muscle. if not rested and conditioned properly, what part of the body is more likely than not to become injured?

 

[maryRS]

I can answer that one! Back. Am I right? I'm going on info I had when my son's back hurt, most of his PT involved hamstring stretches. PT and Ortho both believed he has tight hamstrings and he needs to pay special attention to that, which with the help of his college athletic team, he is in pretty good shape now.

leave the conditioning to the gym. the human science part of what we do determines the athletes physical outcome. not an at home chin up bar. and there is a transfer from upper to lower and lower to upper when proper conditioning is done. in the final analysis, and after many years of training and conditioning, the body will be in a fitness balance. gymnasts use their entire body to perform every single thing that they do. and because gymnastics is more a buttocks and leg activity, more conditioning/cardio is done for this segment of the anatomy. and when done correctly, there is a transfer to the upper body and it is conditioned as well.

an excellent example of this i'll submit as a question and we'll see who answers it correctly: a gymnast has a pulled and aggravated hamstring muscle. if not rested and conditioned properly, what part of the body is more likely than not to become injured?

 

[Deleted member D3987]

no. lol. but you are headed up in the right direction...

 

[iwannacoach]

leave the conditioning to the gym. the human science part of what we do determines the athletes physical outcome. not an at home chin up bar. and there is a transfer from upper to lower and lower to upper when proper conditioning is done. in the final analysis, and after many years of training and conditioning, the body will be in a fitness balance. gymnasts use their entire body to perform every single thing that they do. and because gymnastics is more a buttocks and leg activity, more conditioning/cardio is done for this segment of the anatomy. and when done correctly, there is a transfer to the upper body and it is conditioned as well.

an excellent example of this i'll submit as a question and we'll see who answers it correctly: a gymnast has a pulled and aggravated hamstring muscle. if not rested and conditioned properly, what part of the body is more likely than not to become injured?

Going out on a limb here, but I'm going to "throw down" some ankle smack due to ajustments the gymnast makes to their stride, and landing technique. I have a second choice, but don't think I kneed to blow that one out there. I'll let somebody else guess that one.

And how fair is it to ask a question with so many possible answers this early in the morning. It is after all about 4am coaching pacific daylight time. I tend to be more disagreeable in the morning, but one thing I will agree with is that hamstring injuries can be a real pain in the butt.

 

[Deleted member D3987]

lol, not fair then i guess when you consider pacific daylight time. who knew? lol. but not the ankle... now go get some coffee or espresso.

 

[flipflopcrystal]

i would say your hips and lower back

 

[thefellowsmom]

Ok, I know nothing about nothing in regard to this, but my gut is screaming at me right now so I am just going to throw it out there. Some sort of Abdominal injury?

 

[wallinbl]

Head/neck. Hamstrings are large, well connected muscles. Those get tight or hurt and you're having all kinds of trouble moving properly.

 

[Danica76]

Thanks for the reply BlairBob. Obviously her L is weak - you don't sound like a jerk. It is what it is!

I would have try about 2-3 minutes of Hollow holds. You could make it really complicated and use % of max as hold times or you can just give her a stop watch and say do 2-3 minutes at your own pace. Come down when form breaks (lower back starts to arch off floor).

Same with L, I would only give her about 30 seconds to 1 minute of volume at this time. 10 sets of 3 seconds is more than enough for her at this time.

As well do seated leg lifts where you sit in pike. Place your hands somewhere on the side of your thighs or ankles, lean over and lift your heels off the floor. You can do these as holds or lifts. Just do a lot. 30-50 lifts or 30 seconds to 2 minutes of hold time.

 

[Deleted member D3987]

the answer is elbow. think michelle campi. and when the elbow is injured, it is more likely than not that the athlete will pull a hamstring. the body is truly an amazing organism.

 

[iwannacoach]

the answer is elbow. think michelle campi. and when the elbow is injured, it is more likely than not that the athlete will pull a hamstring. the body is truly an amazing organism.

It must be 4am standard dunno time, because your elbow answer came from a different question than you stated so eloquently in your prior post. The words that came out of your finger tips suggested the hamstrings were aggravated or pulled prior to the second injury.

I can see where you owe all us respondents in dunno university at least a B- with an E for effort. And while your at it, I insist you give me top marks in the "respect for authority" and "works well with others" categories.

 

[BlairBob]

leave the conditioning to the gym. the human science part of what we do determines the athletes physical outcome. not an at home chin up bar. and there is a transfer from upper to lower and lower to upper when proper conditioning is done. in the final analysis, and after many years of training and conditioning, the body will be in a fitness balance. gymnasts use their entire body to perform every single thing that they do. and because gymnastics is more a buttocks and leg activity, more conditioning/cardio is done for this segment of the anatomy. and when done correctly, there is a transfer to the upper body and it is conditioned as well.

Strength and Conditioning tends to be poorer in WAG than MAG in my experience and even then it's typically poor. Especially in the US, where most coaches have no S&C education other than tidbits they piece from when they trained and going to clinics and whatever BS they adhere to in globogyms. What really prevails is whatever is cute and shiny in a globogym. Many gymnastics coaches also spend time as personal trainers generally adhering to some watered down bodybuilding programming that is the bread and butter of Globogyms.

The S&C at most colleges is far better than what you'll see in most club gyms. Obviously the elite club gyms have a good idea of what's necessary but a lot of if it is natural talent will flourish no matter what you do. A sort of meat grinder approach. If gymnasts get a problem or injury, they send them to a PT and hope for the best.

Seriously, the S&C education for gymnastics coaches is far more thorough in most countries than the U.S.

Go around and start asking gymnastics coaches if they have read the Russian literature on S&C and see how many blank faces you get. Or hell, even the literature in our countries which has been pretty much covered by the Russians years ago.

leave the conditioning to the gym. the human science part of what we do determines the athletes physical outcome. not an at home chin up bar. and there is a transfer from upper to lower and lower to upper when proper conditioning is done. in the final analysis, and after many years of training and conditioning, the body will be in a fitness balance. gymnasts use their entire body to perform every single thing that they do. and because gymnastics is more a buttocks and leg activity, more conditioning/cardio is done for this segment of the anatomy. and when done correctly, there is a transfer to the upper body and it is conditioned as well.

Sorry Dunno, but this isn't even technobabble. It's a nice dream but where do I start on refuting it?

Certain parts of the lower body are more predisposed to slow twitch muscle fibers as well in the back.

Gymnastic routines are at most 90 seconds. This makes it primarily an anaerobic activity much like the 400m sprint. Except that the sprint does not have downtime like FX/BB routines do with lower intensity poses and dance skills which allow the body to recover between tumbling passes (even if the dance movements are continuous they are still not as taxing as the tumbling passes).

What gymnasts typically need is explosive strength and strength endurance. Neither of these are "cardio" as they do not primarily depend on the oxidative energy system. That system is working during routine execution but the bulk of energy and power comes from ATP-phosphagen and the glycolytic energy system.

Just because you tax the lower body does not mean that you will experience growth and strength increases in the upper body. Now tumbling does work everything from head to toe, but weakenesses in one part of the body will shine and have to be addresses. You can't simply just keep doing what you are doing and pray for it to get better.

Ideally a gym's S&C programming would be sufficient that nothing else be need done. Unfortunately as I said, it tends to be a lot worse in WAG than MAG and even then it's poor. This isn't China, Japan, Russia or many other countries where a foundation of strength is the building block of it's gymnastics program.