Team size

[Amber]

Hi,
I am new here and have a question about team size. My 7 yr old DD is level 3 and there a 15 girls on the team. They practice 4 hours a week with 2 coaches. This sounds arrogant (sorry), but DD is without a doubt the best on the team. She has placed first out of her team in 3 out of 4 meets, and is typically in the top ten ( the meets usually have between 35-50 girls). Half of her team is doing poorly- they place consistently in the bottom third. The parents can't be enjoying that. At one meet, a mom from another gym said our team is too big and we take anyone, and that's why alot of our girls score so low .
When the moms asked the head coach about the constant low scores, she blew it off, saying level 3 doesn't matter and that there is no correlation between scoring at level 3 and 4. So if they do terrible at 3, they could do great at 4.
I found out recently from the head coach that all the level 3's will be moving up to 4, some level 4's will be repeating, some prep bronzes will be on 4, and some level 2's will skip to 4. There are 2 coaches for 4 an they practice 6-8 hours per week. This means there will probably be more than 20 kids on 4 next year! There is also no plans to add a coach.
I am trying to trust the coaches decision, but level 4 this year is like 8 girls and they are doing fabulous. I am wondering if this many kids will reduce progression?

What are your thoughts?
A

 

[bogwoppit]

15 kids with two coaches sounds like a great ratio. There are so many reasons why some kids don't do as well as others. As your DD is doing so well I really wouldn't worry about anything until the new levels are given and training begins.

The L4's that now have two coaches for 8 kids are very lucky, it is rare to hear of groups so small.

 

[lhmom]

IMO, I think that the coaches are correct in saying that how they do in level 3 is not an indicator of how they will do in the higher levels. In fact, there are many gyms who do not start girls competing until level 5. At DD's gym, they start at 4 but see that level as an opportunity for the girls to get a feel for competing and getting their form corrected. As for the numbers, I think as long as the coaches are efficient with the time they have, the girls will get the training that they need. DD's level 4 team this year had 15 girls, but often they were "split" up between 2 coaches (first year 4's with one, 2nd yr. girls with the other) and they practice 9 hours a week. Hope this helps!

 

[Amber]

Thanks for the opinions.... We're new to this and don't have any clue as to what's "normal". I feel alot better now

 

[TXmom]

Our preteam, which is considered level 3, has 5 girls with 1 coach, and the level 4's have 10 girls with 2 coaches. Level 5 has 8 girls with 1 coach, (although they do have other coaches helping out I notice) higher than that I'm not sure. My son has recently started training with the boys team and there is one coach with 9 boys and they are all at different levels. They do have another coach which helps one out of the three days. In our gym it's invite only or they've been referred (like we were) and evaluated. I think a big factor for team is not just the child's ability but the parents commitment and financial capability. We know it's not cheap! I have met several parents whose kids are really good but they've decided to stay in regular classes versus going on team, when invited, due to the time and cost necessary. One parent, whose dd is doing level 6 skills, is in an intermediate class with my 8 year old dd and her mom told me she just can't commit to bringing her daughter for 9 hours a week.

 

[Quadqueen]

I agree with the previous posters who said 15 is not too many....25+ for 2 coaches would be pushing it. I don't know that I necessarily agree with moving someone to Level 4 who is doing poorly in Level 3. True, they could do fabulously in 4, but if they can't handle 3, which is very basic, 4 is going to be a huge jump for them.

 

[Amber]

How common is it for all of the level 3 team to move up regardless of how they are doing? I know in our gym that around level 5/6 kids repeat if necessay, but the lower levels are not strict at all.

 

[Esoteric]

In dds gym, the 3s do not compete, and are not considered a team, per se. There are rec levels 1-3 and developmental levels 1-3. When a child has gone through the level 3 devo for a season, they are more than prepared for level 4. The current years level 4 team consists of several 2nd year level 4s that were not "up to par" to move to level 5, however all of the first year level 4s that went through the devo level are ready to move up to 5 in a couple months. Our devo levels are through invitation only, and they hold try-outs annually and by a referral from a rec teacher only. The devo groups are limited to 8 children, Some of the kiddos spend 3 years in the devo levels before going to 4, others go to 4 after one year or less. Our devo girls go between 3 to 4 hours/week depending on level and the ratio of coaches is in line with your experience. I would imagine that, although some children seem more adept then others, if they are already having meets at level 3, is doesn't really matter if they are placing in the bottom at this age/skill level. If the coach decides to move them all up, they probably have a good reason.

Level 4 is a sink or swim level, and many girls do not go any further in gymnastics. As far as placements, you cannot control who you're competing against, and someone has to come in last- on occasion, even the "best" gymmie will have an off day and place much lower than usual. This has been my dds first year competing and she definitely has talent. She stood on the podium in a 1-3rd place all around at every meet with the exception of her 1st meet- which she took 5th out of 23 in her age group. She also took 1st on bars at every meet she has been in with the exception of 1 meet that she took 2nd. That is all well and good, but we NEVER focus on placements or scores. The only time we got excited over placement was at fall states where she took 1st which resulted in her being the child division bar champ and having her name on a banner in the gym.

I think focusing on placements is counter-productive until the higher optional levels when stuff like that matters to college recruiters and the like. Who cares what place your dd comes in, as long as she is doing HER best, she does not need to be THE best. And as far as worrying about other people's children- that is a bad habit you should break yourself of now before you make yourself, and your dd, crazy.

 

[gymgal]

At this level, a lot depends upon age, experience, maturity, and basic balance. Improvement in the latter three will go a long way in how girls do at the next level.

It's great that your dd is doing well at this level but don't discount her teammates who aren't doing so well this year. Performance at one level (particularly the beginner levels) is not an indicator of success at the next level. Girls will find certain skills harder/easier than others at different levels.

As for team size: it is unlikely that all of these girls will go to L4. Moving, lack of interest, finances.... Girls drop out. But even if it stayed at 20 with two coaches, it would be fine as long as the coaches feel comfortable handling this size and set up circuits to keep the girls working.

 

[Quadqueen]

At my DD's gym, 3 is considered "pre-team," but the coaches will still have girls repeat Level 3 or Level 4 if they don't think they're ready for the next level (as they do for the higher levels too). I know there are different schools of thought on this, but that's what they do at our gym. That being said, the higher up in the levels they go at our gym, the more likely they are to repeat a level.

 

[thefellowsmom]

One thing I have learned from my time here is that every gym handles EVERYTHING totally different. It all depends on philosophy and program goals and coaching and parents and kids etc etc etc. I find it helpful to hear about how other gyms handle things, but most times, you just have to wait and see what will happen at your gym. This is a game of patience and progressive levels letting go. At least that is my experience.

At our gym, some girls do level three and some go straight from pre-team (not really a level) to level 4 or even level 5. Every girl has their own plan. That plan is not always clear to us and is ever changing, but every girl is treated as an individual.

We didn't do level 3, but the parents of last years level 3s say that the meets were lots of fun and everyone gets a prize and it is just really great experience. Level 4 at our gym is even viewed mostly as experience and definitely a proving ground for whether you have the perceived potential to go to higher levels.

Our level 4 team tends to be very large as this is where all the girls get their chance. Some girls will hang out in level 4 a couple of years and then go to xcel and some wiz through onto level 5 and pretty much everything in between.

Just for information sake, our level 4 ratio is about 8 to 1 on most days. Sometimes a little higher, sometimes a little lower depending on attendance and coaching availability.

Good luck and welcome to the Chalk Bucket!

 

[GymnastJoy]

I also don't think that next year's ratios should be a concern. However, it does seem that your gymnastics philosophy does not fit with that of your gym. It's admirable that they are moving up all the level 3s since that is not even competed at many gyms and this gives ALL the girls a chance to prove themselves at level 4. And it's great that your dd has talent and you are obviously proud of her, but why would you assume that the other parents are "not enjoying" watching their dds compete because they are placing in the bottom third? I obviously don't know you or your gym, but just saying that your dd is at a lower level and you already have concerns over team ratios, meet placements, and gym reputation.

 

[Deleted member D3987]

all this discussion about beginner level intro gymnastics. i'm just sayin...

 

[Amber]

I guess I should clarify a few things. I have met moms who have changed gyms many times, and I feel that changing adds stress for everyone. Since I am new to all this, I am just finding out if my gym's behavior is typical. That's all. For all I knew, most teams could be 6 kids! Our team is the biggest at every meet. I just want to make sure that when we commit a large amount of time and money, its in a good gym, that makes good decisions,and I would like my DD to stay there. I am surprised at all the negative comments. I am just trying to get info, not ruffle feathers. And yes, parents don't enjoy seeing their kids come in second to last place consistently, even if they are enjoying it. I have been in that situation with another DD, and its just human nature. Yes, its lowly level 3, but all gymnasts start somewhere, even Olympians.

 

[gymgal]

I am surprised at all the negative comments. I am just trying to get info, not ruffle feathers. And yes, parents don't enjoy seeing their kids come in second to last place consistently, even if they are enjoying it. I have been in that situation with another DD, and its just human nature. Yes, its lowly level 3, but all gymnasts start somewhere, even Olympians.

I didn't view any of the posts as negative. they are just offering opinions and letting you know to not take these lower levels so seriously. As posted, most gyms don't even compete L3. And many don't compete L4. These really are pre-team level skills. The gyms that compete it do it to give the girls some competition experience to see if it's something they want more of. It also helps the coaches see how these kids do under pressure. But again, performance at these lower levels do not guarantee performance at the upper levels - good or bad.

As for parents watching their dd's score low at each meet - many parents really don't care about the scoring. they determine their dd's success on other factors like improving their skills between meets. You are not that type of parent - and that's ok. But there are plenty of parents who have their dd's in gymnastics for reasons other than competition. and many others believe that eventually their dd may "catch up" and begin to perform better. I have a ds who swims competitively. Last year, he routinely timed in the lowest 10% of all swimmers for his age. This year he is in the top half or higher. Now that's progress. He still never wins a ribbon but it doesn't matter. He enjoys the competing and is improving. That's enough for me.

 

[Kiwi]

As for parents watching their dd's score low at each meet - many parents really don't care about the scoring. they determine their dd's success on other factors like improving their skills between meets.

That's the thing about gymnastics. You can score in the middle of the pack in a competition and actually have pretty good skills. It means someone else was better, but it doesn't mean you were rubbish.

Many kids like gymnastics because they enjoy learning and being able to perform the skills. They may enjoy giving a performance in competition. The way I see it, if everyone who didn't medal or come near the top in competitions decided to give up, the competitions would get smaller and smaller and smaller...

And Dunno, the reason there is so much talk about beginner level gymnastics is because that is when parents and kids know the least. Teams and competitions and what goes on at the gym are all new things to get familiar with.

 

[COOLGYMMOM]

There are 15 girls in my DD's level 4 team and we have 3 coaches. At the practice, each coach takes 5 girls to work on one event and then rotate. Just like in the competition. I like how they work it out.

 

[sportzmomov3]

There are various items in the original post that those of us who are more seasoned can latch onto and have opinions on, but it was the 2nd post from the OP that I am responding to - and that is the concern over moving gyms.

I have always said, there is a gym for everyone, but not every gym is for everyone. And over time, your gymnast's needs/wants might very well change. It's part of life, and it's certainly part of gymnastics. Sure there are people who enter a gym and never leave that gym. That is more the exception from what I've seen, than the norm. Gym changes are not always a negative thing.

If you're concerned with the gym's decisions because you believe it will negatively impact your child, then by all means, do your research and see if there's a gym that's better suited for whatever your child needs, and then make the move. Regardless of what happens at someone else's gym, you need to match what you know about your child with what's really happening in your current situation. As for change being stressful, at the lower levels, it's really not that different than getting a new teacher each year in school - change is part of moving forward.

 

[GymGirl's Mom]

Here's my take on it with gyms in my area. L3 and L4 and L5 teams are BIG. Unless the gym is small or new or loses a lot of girls to other teams all the time. There is a trickle-down effect through the levels. As the gymnasts progress from one level to another girls quit for a number of reasons- they found a sport they like better, the don't want to make the time commitment, they have suffered lots of injuries, etc., etc. By the time your DD is a L7 chances are her "team" will be smaller- and definitely by the time she is a L9 or 10.

Do I think your team sounds large- no. The average staff to student ratio at DD's gym and other gyms in the area is around 8 to 1- sometimes a few more sometimes a few less. Just as others have said performance at L3 and L4 often doesn't indicate what kind of gymnast this child will be through the years. Some girls are strong in every level, some are way better at Optionals than Compulsaries, and some have a rough season at L3 or L4 and then hit their stride at L5. Just happens.

ITA with what a previous posters said about switching gyms- there are good fits for different kinds of kids out there. Do you think your DD would do better in a smaller gym with more attention? Maybe look for a smaller program. I think she hit the nail on the head- especially in these lower levels- that switching gyms for these young compulsary gymnasts would be no different than having a new teacher every year at school- especially in large programs. If you are worried about the lack of attention your DD is getting on her current team- look around you may find a better fit for her somewhere else.

 

[GymGirl's Mom]

I also want to add that I would have given that woman from the other team that said your team was too big and they "take anyone" a piece of my mind. Really???? What's it to her. Often the "good" gyms have big compulsary teams for the reasons I stated above- b/c girls don't often stick with the sport. I am sure your gym doesn't just "take anybody" on their team- maybe your team is more likely to give a kid a shot- but to me that's what it should be about at these low levels. If a kid has some skills- try her out and see how she does. Sounds like jealousy to me- or just trying to bring down another team to make herself feel better... whatever it is it was uncalled for and snobby.