WAG Teams Praying before/during meets

[raenndrops]

Got it. I've never experienced praying at a gymnastics meet. But the point is, people should not have to remove themselves: they should not be subjected to it in the first place. If it is a Christian gym that advertises itself as a Christian gym then they can totally do what they want. Truly where I live, YMCA's are very very inclusive!

Our Y Region is also very inclusive... which is why the prayer at most of the meets isnt overly religious. Our home meets... the extent of the "religiousness" is the "Dear God" at he beginning and "Amen" at the end.

 

[raenndrops]

Just to clarify - older folks (over 45 ish, maybe younger but not by much) were not raised to place their hands on their heart. That was reserved for the Pledge of Allegiance. We were raised to fold our hands in front of us or at our sides.

Or behind the back while standing at Attention.

 

[gymisforeveryone]

This is something you could NEVER see here. I bet that if there was a prayer before a meet, that would be a national scandal all over the media. Even a team prayer could be questionable, because gymnastics clubs here are not private businesses. Even if 70% of the population are Lutheran and we have mandatory religious OR ethics education, it would still be very weird if someone started a prayer during a meet.

We hear the national anthem at Nationals, but nowhere else.

 

[raenndrops]

certainly not true that "Every YMCA meet starts this way"

national anthem, yes. prayers, no, not at any Y meet I've ever been to (and that's a lot of meets)

i'd be very interested if you could link to the bylaws-not really disbelieving you, but this is contrary to every experience I've ever had with the Y. perhaps it is regional?

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and, on a related note, they are based on "Judeo-Christian" values - the exact quote is that their mission is "To put Judeo-Christian principles into practice though programs that build a healthy spirit, mind and body for all"

It could be that if a YMCA is hosting a "club meet" instead of a closed YMCA meet, that they could opt not to do the prayer.

 

[raenndrops]

Or behind the back while standing at Attention.

Not FULLY behind the back... but I cant put my arms down at my sides comfortably, so they look more BACK than side unless I put my hand over my heart.

 

[Madden3]

I am surprised how many people here are up in arms over a prayer or an anthem before a meet. Prayers are words and songs are music and words. Either the words or music has meaning for you or they do not. But they cannot hurt you.

I get it that people feel peer pressured- but that happens in many areas of one's life and to call that force is disrespectful to people who actually do live under the threat of force. There are places on this earth where people really are forced to comply even in private with the rules of a state religion or constantly show subjugation and obedience to a government or leader and will be put in jail or killed for not complying. So please, think about what you are saying when you say you are being forced to stand for the anthem. If you think your gym is going to take it out on your daughter if you do not want to politely stand for 3 minutes to hear the anthem of your country played or a prayer said, then the problem is with your gym, not the country.

As far as "allowing" prayer. We have this thing called freedom of religion in America, it is in the first amendment - and that first part is no accident.

That means if you want to pray, even out loud, even with other people around, even if you are the official at a meet, you have the legal right to pray, to lead a prayer, and frankly to ask others to pray. Yes, asking (as opposed to forcing) people to do something is not a crime. Interpretations by the courts of the first amendment over the years has taken the right to pray away when the prayer is connected to a government entity- this is why you cannot (officially) pray in (public) school- as one example.

But the meets I have been to have never been in a government facility. They are held in and by private businesses - gyms or spaces rented by gyms so they can run a meet. So I am pretty sure(?) prayer in that context is legally ok, and may I add that while I myself only pray silently or privately, and am not into public prayer myself, one thing I pray about is how thankful I am to live in a country with the freedoms we have.

Now that said, we have not once been to a meet where there was an official or unofficial prayer before the meet or at any other time. I imagine prayer at a meet is actually quite uncommon overall.

But there is always a recorded or performed version of the national anthem, and yes, traditionally, those who wish to and can, stand and face the flag. As far as hands- I was not sure so I looked it up.

Currently, it appears the protocol is hand over heart for everyone except people in uniform. They are supposed to salute. Veterans and military service members NOT in uniform may either salute or put hands over hearts. (this is a somewhat recent change, it used to be that they were not to salute if not in uniform.) And talking during the anthem is considered disrespectful. But all of this is voluntary, you do understand.

The Stars and Stripes is a symbol of the country, the United States of America. Not of the military, not of the president, not of the government, not of the Olympic team etc-- although of course depending on the context, it could represent some specific entity as well. So if someone wants to say, 'I am standing for the anthem to support the military,' it is not incorrect exactly so much as incomplete. Country flags (and anthems) symbolize the country they represent.

 

[GymFan96]

At my old gym, one of our sponsors did t shirts for a meet with their business logo on the front, and a Christian-themed “gymnast prayer” on the back. We did not ask for that, and I didn’t care for it because I generally don’t like religious stuff being pushed on people.

 

[bogwoppit]

As this page ran this long whilst I was out I will add my 10 cents in.

Religion is a strange beast in North America. Comfort is had from the sliced white bread protestant type religions, even for non observers. But other religious demonstrations are perceived as dangerous and odd, and often go reported on airlines etc.

I honestly believe religion has no place in children's sports. But then I also believe that religion has no place in politics.

As to the anthem, it is a little odd to see the whole hands on hearts thing. Fervent patriotism is just not a thing in either of my countries, UK and Canada, so it does look a bit rabid to the outsider looking in.

Because everyone is being so well behaved on this thread I will not close it down. Love that you can discuss so nicely.

 

[gymmomtotwo]

As this page ran this long whilst I was out I will add my 10 cents in.

Religion is a strange beast in North America. Comfort is had from the sliced white bread protestant type religions, even for non observers. But other religious demonstrations are perceived as dangerous and odd, and often go reported on airlines etc.

I honestly believe religion has no place in children's sports. But then I also believe that religion has no place in politics.

As to the anthem, it is a little odd to see the whole hands on hearts thing. Fervent patriotism is just not a thing in either of my countries, UK and Canada, so it does look a bit rabid to the outsider looking in.

Because everyone is being so well behaved on this thread I will not close it down. Love that you can discuss so nicely.

I associate the hand over the heart beginning with 9/11. It shook our country to the core in so many ways. It fundamentally changed the way I see the world, and I know it did for many others as well. That is when it seems to me the hand over the heart began. Pehaps with a little understanding it would not look rabid to you, but instead heartfelt.
I have never personally had a prayer said at a gymnastics meet or any other sports event. It would not bother me if it was, and it certainly would not bother me if it was another religion. My Catholic daughter has been to Jewish Temple with her best friend on several occasions and vice versa. We are not scared of or uncomfortable with differences in culture or beliefs.
The original question was if there are gyms out there that pray before meets, and the answer is yes. It is up to each person to decide if that is okay with them that their child be exposed to it. If not, there are always other gyms. Why another team huddled before a meet would make bystanders uncomfortable is beyond me. What goes on in their team meeting is noones business but the people and parents involved.

 

[MILgymFAM]

I am surprised how many people here are up in arms over a prayer or an anthem before a meet. Prayers are words and songs are music and words. Either the words or music has meaning for you or they do not. But they cannot hurt you.

They absolutely cannot hurt me, but they can make me feel uncomfortable, out of place, and even unwanted in the right situation. I am an atheist. I am an urban northerner. It wasn’t until we moved to Texas- with the military- that I realized how much prayer and patriotism could be shoved into daily life. We saw it in kids sports, at our (government) jobs, even in my kids public schools. I know you think it shouldn’t bother us, but how would you honestly feel if every single day felt like it revolved around Islam? Seriously. I will never accept how much religion is forced down military families’ throats, I will never accept religion in schools, and thankfully I haven’t run into it, because I wouldn’t accept it in gymnastics either. As for the national anthem, no, that doesn’t feel like a harm to me.. but it does feel like a harm to this country. Forced displays of patriotism and blind fervency have replaced discourse and criticisms, which I believe to be the most important hallmarks of a democracy.

 

[profmom]

I have no problem with a team doing whatever they want to do, but that's different to me than having a meet itself open with group prayer. I hope people whose religious attachments rest in faith and imagine an interventionist deity can understand that this orientation is not universal among religions. Some religious traditions do not imagine an interventionist deity, others find it inappropriate or even vaguely offensive to ask G-d for something as trivial as a hit routine, and still others have particular formulaic prayers to invoke G-d that simply are not done in a secular space outside the community. Even a bland prayer that does not mention Jesus is still recognizable as a Christian practice by most, and the unstated assumption that not mentioning Jesus automatically makes it inclusive and universal is in fact incorrect. Saying something like "well, you can run through the Amidah if you want to at a meet and we won't be offended" is sort of like saying, "here's some challah to eat at your Passover seder!"

I would prefer that Americans not judge each other by the multitude of ways that they show deep, thoughtful ways of engaging with our nation's ideals. The only behavior I find offensive during the playing of the national anthem is inattention and chatter. Standing quietly, arms at side, hand over heart, even kneeling -- anyone who's doing any of those things to me is respecting and representing the beauty of the diverse ways that we understand and perform American liberty.

 

[bogwoppit]

I would prefer that Americans not judge each other by the multitude of ways that they show deep, thoughtful ways of engaging with our nation's ideals. The only behavior I find offensive during the playing of the national anthem is inattention and chatter. Standing quietly, arms at side, hand over heart, even kneeling -- anyone who's doing any of those things to me is respecting and representing the beauty of the diverse ways that we understand and perform American liberty.

100%. When I have been in the US for meets etc. I just stand and wait. That is all people need to do. Chatter is just rude, in the same way chattering through another countries anthem at the Olympics is rude.

 

[tpMom]

I have never seen a prayer before a meet but they do play or sing the National Anthem before each session.

I was actually joking to my husband the other day that gymnastics was going to give me a complex about the anthem because I'm starting to associate it with my nerves. I can be totally calm all day but as soon as the anthem starts to play I start to get nervous for the competition .

 

[coachmolly]

I was at a meet a few weeks ago in a part of the country that is very fond of flags, showy patriotism, and anthems and the meet organizers neglected to get a flag. I can only imagine the criticism being thrown out among parents when that happened.
I stand with my hands at my sides for the anthem, quietly and respectfully. But after the Gabby Douglas debacle I often wonder if some families will drag me through the mud for not putting my hand over my heart. I never knew I needed to be so self conscious about the way I choose to respect the flag! I'm also someone who finds it unnecessary to play the anthem before every single session at a meet.

 

[dmbgymnast]

Just wanted to add, I have been competing at my YMCA for 4 years now, and we have never prayed before a meet, and I've been to meets all over Region 6. I'm not religious, but most of my teammates are. I personally wouldn't care if they did pray before meets, but I can imagine a lot of people would.

 

[Lunde]

I don't have any problems with national anthems - I always stand respectfully even if it is not mine

I would have problems with public prayers before a meet. Being on a team should be a time for unity and togetherness and I would not be happy with any situation that emphasizes division and difference. I cannot imagine how it would feel to be the child of a different faith standing aside while others participate in a religious bonding experience that excludes you.

However for team members who think that prayer is important I have nothing against those that wish to to take a moment individually to offer a silent prayer - just not as an organised (teammate excluding) event.

 

[BachFlyer]

We are decidedly atheist. If a meet had a prayer, I wouldn’t particularly like it and if it were my choice would not return, but I could ignore it. I do wonder, though, if people would feel the same if it were a prayer led or alluding to a faith that wasn’t in the majority. I suspect we’d never see it, and if it happened I suspect that meet would rapidly lose participants. It is this part that bothers me most - the “live and let live” mentality that only seems to apply for the majority.

If our team prayed as a group before a meet, led or encouraged by a coach or someone that had perceived or actual authority over her, my daughter would be very very uncomfortable, to the point that we’d likely find a new gym. It was one of the questions we asked when doing college visits, because some teams do, and she didn’t want it.

 

[mommyof1]

I get sad when I am the only one singing it. I get the strangest looks when I am singing along. Who cares if you can sing well or not... SING!

Unfortunately, way the anthem is typically performed at sporting events (a cappella, in the style of a cadenza, by someone who is incapable of staying in the same key throughout the entire song) does not lend itself to sing-along.

 

[Randomactsofcheer]

I will never accept how much religion is forced down military families’ throats, I will never accept religion in schools, and thankfully I haven’t run into it, because I wouldn’t accept it in gymnastics either. As for the national anthem, no, that doesn’t feel like a harm to me.. but it does feel like a harm to this country. Forced displays of patriotism and blind fervency have replaced discourse and criticisms, which I believe to be the most important hallmarks of a democracy.

This aspect of the military was a huge culture shock for my husband and I. We always felt very out of place amongst most military because of it.

 

[gasrgoose]

I've seen prayer before a meet and happen to pray often myself. By many I would be called very religious. However most prayers before meets are to the "genie in a bottle" type god, which is not how I see it. "Please protect us, show us favor, make us win, make us better than we practice", etc. I typically listen while be very critical in my head. But then I watch and enjoy the performances of my daughter and the other gymnasts who are out there doing amazing things!