Tsuk Layout VS Yurchenko Layout

[Optionals United]

Okay guys I have a question to all you smart people out there. my teammate is probably going to compete a tsuk layout next year for level 9 and told me it is only worth a 9.7 SV. while a yurchenko layout is worth a 10.0 SV. i told her i would look into it so here is my question. arent both a tsuk layout and yurchenko layout worth the same thing? For level 9 are they both a 10.0 SV? she may also be competing a fh front tuck. what is the start value for that at level 9? if not a 10.0 what fh would achieve a 10.0 SV. And one last final question i know there is a lot of them. What are the SV for these vaults at level 10. Thanks guys!!

 

[win1385]

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Check out the link

 

[3rd_time_around]

They are both worth a 10 in level 9. Front-fronts are worth 10. my dd was competing that.
They need to twist for level 10 to start from a 10.

 

[Optionals United]

okay guys thamks for the info. those are the SV i thought but when she said that i was like WHAT! and just wanted to double check

 

[LMV]

Okay guys I have a question to all you smart people out there. my teammate is probably going to compete a tsuk layout next year for level 9 and told me it is only worth a 9.7 SV. while a yurchenko layout is worth a 10.0 SV. i told her i would look into it so here is my question. arent both a tsuk layout and yurchenko layout worth the same thing? For level 9 are they both a 10.0 SV? she may also be competing a fh front tuck. what is the start value for that at level 9? if not a 10.0 what fh would achieve a 10.0 SV. And one last final question i know there is a lot of them. What are the SV for these vaults at level 10. Thanks guys!!

From my daughter:
-Tsuks are awesome always remember that
-They are both 10.0 in level 9 BUT in level 10 if you can twist of a the Tsuk layout then it is 10.0 and extra bonus. With the Yurchenko layout full there isn't bonus. That's because Tsuks are awesome!

She did a Tsuk layout/ Yurchenko Pike in L9 and will do a Tsuk layout full in L10. She really doesn't like Yurchenkos she is hoping that she can just do the Tsuk this year. She has also been working on handspring layouts and kind of likes them so that may be her second vault if she is required to have one.

 

[3rd_time_around]

From my daughter:
-Tsuks are awesome always remember that
-They are both 10.0 in level 9 BUT in level 10 if you can twist of a the Tsuk layout then it is 10.0 and extra bonus. With the Yurchenko layout full there isn't bonus. That's because Tsuks are awesome!

This is so great to know!! My dd can't do a Yurchenko because her one arm is slightly shorter than the other due to an old injury, and when training it she developed a stress fracture in her good arm because of compensating for that. So she does Tsuks, even though the HC thinks everyone should be doing Yurchenkos. Her Tsuk is awesome, so knowing that there is bonus for it makes me happy!! Thanks for the information.

 

[Deleted member D3987]

wait a second...it's getting convoluted here. yurchenkos and tsuks have the same start value at either 9 or 10 regardless of the positions tuck, pike or lay out. there is no bonus anything unless you go past a full. so, yurchenko lay out 1 1/2 twist or more and tsuk layout 1 1/2 or more have start values of 10.1. unfortunately at the moment, you could do a double twist and it is still only a 10.1.

 

[3rd_time_around]

Well, that saves me searching online for the chart.

 

[LMV]

Hmm….

Ok, I was going to explain to our daughter that she must have misunderstood what she looked at or one of her friends said. She would be very bummed about this because she thought that the bonus discrepancy might be her best argument for competing only the Tsuk this year. However, earlier today, one of my colleagues was feeling bad about helping his son study for his latin final and correcting him on something which actually appeared on the final but, well, dad was wrong so son still got it wrong as one of his friends pointed out after the exam. So before I became clueless mom [because I’m sure I’ll have other opportunities to do that later without even trying] I decided to look at the pages that were linked above. If I’m reading them correctly, it looks like my daughter actually is correct. Am I misunderstanding what I’m reading? Is there a typo on the page? I’ll wait on someone to clarify this before I jump into the fray with our daughter.

Thanks!


GAGymMom,
I’m sorry to hear about your daughter’s elbow problems. I agree she shouldn’t be working something that is likely to be unstable. Our daughter can do Yurchenko entries she just doesn’t like them. I think some of this may be that she feels a little more secure [I have no clue if she actually is] with the Tsuk. At this point I also think it’s sort of her joke with her coach and she keeps coming up with reasons why she should do Tsuks instead like:
-”Everyone does Yurchenkos and my parents tell me I shouldn’t just go along with the crowd if it doesn’t feel right.”
-”You’re always saying that we need balance in training. So, what if I work Yurchenkos on days without a Y and work Tsuks on days without a T?”
-The bonus scenario above [which she may be wrong about]
She has more too. I was kind of thinking about making a t-shirt with her top 10 for her to give to her coach for Coach’s day.

 

[NGL780309]

LMV I was under the impression that a Tsuk Layout with a full twist got bonus too. I didn't read the link because it wouldn't open for me. Maybe dunno can clarify because I really thought the yurchenko full =no bonus, but the Tsuk full =.1 in bonus.

Regardless I like tsuk vaults too. Mostly because seeing yurchenko fulls gets a little old. I love to see a great tsuk. I was so happy when Marissa King won NCAA's this year with her tsuk 1.5.

 

[Deleted member D3987]

LMV I was under the impression that a Tsuk Layout with a full twist got bonus too. I didn't read the link because it wouldn't open for me. Maybe dunno can clarify because I really thought the yurchenko full =no bonus, but the Tsuk full =.1 in bonus.

Regardless I like tsuk vaults too. Mostly because seeing yurchenko fulls gets a little old. I love to see a great tsuk. I was so happy when Marissa King won NCAA's this year with her tsuk 1.5.

okay, i was mistaken. had to get it from my wife/boss/judge. i wasn't aware that the vault values had been changed/revised during the season on/as of 3/21/11 and as early as 8/1/10.quite frankly, i never look at the vault values. you coach this event as to what they can do and not what it's worth. understand that the start value is a 10.0. and if they fall or are spotted they don't receive .10 bonus. i'm sorry about the small font. i don't know how to make it bigger. if someone could do that it would be appreciated.

1.402 Hsp - 2½ 10.0​

1.505 Yami - 2½ 10.0

 

[Deleted member D3987]

Link Removed

 

[3rd_time_around]

Thank you, thank you!! I'm so excited to have this information!!!!!

 

[LMV]

okay, i was mistaken. had to get it from my wife/boss/judge. i wasn't aware that the vault values had been changed/revised during the season on/as of 3/21/11 and as early as 8/1/10.quite frankly, i never look at the vault values. you coach this event as to what they can do and not what it's worth. understand that the start value is a 10.0. and if they fall or are spotted they don't receive .10 bonus. i'm sorry about the small font. i don't know how to make it bigger. if someone could do that it would be appreciated.

1.402 Hsp - 2½ 10.0
​

1.505 Yami - 2½ 10.0

Thanks for clarifying this. I didn't mean to suggest that everyone should just start throwing Tsuck layout fulls just because they can start from 10.1 if they are landed. I just didn't want to tell our daughter she was wrong if she was actually right. I also understand that coaches may have very good reasons for directing a kid away from certain vaults. In our daughter's case I believe the reason he wants her to keep working with progressions from Yurchenko entries is because he feels that some of the down the road vaults in that family may be things she wants to do. So, he doesn't want her to dismiss them prematurely at age 10 or 11. However, he did think she had a great Tsuk layout during L9 and she twists very well out of it so he will let her compete it in L10.

I'm also not advocating that kids routinely object to whatever their parents or coaches tell them to do. In our daughter's defense, she seems to do what she is told at practice and saves the litany of why Tsuks are awesome for after practice or the gym pool party we hosted a few weekends ago. I have to admit that we probably encourage her in this a little because, honestly, it is just nice to see some of her personality coming back after everything she has been through.

 

[exgymnastmomx3]

I am going to add my opinion to this. When my dd at the age of 12 had so much trouble getting a yurchenko, I wondered why he wouldn't let her work on a tsuck. Her vault really ruined her AA many times in her 1st year of level 8. She always had to hit her other 3 events perfectly to be a contender for an AA medal. She was frustrated. He stuck to his guns when I asked again. He told me he wouldn't let her do one because he knew that she had the potential to be a great level 10 one day and he felt that a tsuck would be dead end vault for her. After working on the yurchenko awhile longer, she became a great vaulter. I am glad he stuck to his plan. While it hindered her success one meet season, it greatened her success in the long run as she would need that yurchenko full down the road. Now before I get multiple responses about the tsuck full, my experience is that in all of the level 10 meets I've gone to and all of the college gymnastics I've seen, the amount of kids who do twist tsucks is miniscule compaired to the amount of kids who twist yurchenkos. Why? The difficulty in it. It's rare to see a good full twisting layout tsuck and full twisting yurchenkos are a dime a dozen these days at big level 10 meets and of course in college. I know Marissa King does a beautiful 1 1/2 tsuck, but how many others do? Lots of 1 1/2 twisting yurchenkos at Nationals. Any coaches comments would be welcome since I'm not a coach, but just speaking from my experience

 

[txgymfan]

When adults in athority and kids have disagreements, espically when they turn into ongoing, joking arguments it is a sign of respect and trust on both sides.

At the high levels of gym so many of the top girls do yurchenkos, as a fan its nice to see something different. Actually, its nice to see something different on all of the events. Some gyms develop great athletes but they all do similar skills, have similar hair and look very uniform. It is the sign of a great coach, teacher and mentor when they listen to the athletes and help them develop skills the kids excell at, enjoy and that show their presonality.

So bring on the Tusks, Yurchenkos and all the variety coaches can create. Its good for the athletes (kids), the cool aunts (and other relatives) and the fans.

 

[3rd_time_around]

I was going to ask, just because many gymnasts do a skill does that make the other option skill not as desired or not scored as high even if the value is the same? Because it would seem that seeing something different is a good thing in gymnastics, not a bad thing. We have a little of that with my dd on most events. She has heard a lot of "that's what all the good gymnasts are doing." But she doesn't care, she wants to do what SHE is good at, not what everyone else is good at. She is a good gymnast, strong and powerful, and did very well last season. I just wonder why the push by a lot of coaches to do what everyone else is doing? The reason skills get named after people is because they were the first to do it. Someone has to do something different now and then to keep the sport alive!

My dd does a Tsuk. She does it well. She is working on the layout, then she will work on the twist. She was scoring 9.2-9.35 with a 9.7 SV, so I think that's pretty good. That's only .5 - .35 deductions. If she can learn the 10SV vault and still get those deductions, that is a good score.

I've been saying this for 3 years (since my dd started level 7)--its OPTIONALS!!! not compulsories. They have the OPTION of doing what they do best. They have a chart of things to choose from!! So why does everyone have to do the same things? This is so frustrating to me (and my dd). Let them be innovative! Let them have a skill named for them! Let them shine!! Thank you SO MUCH for pointing out that 1/1 Tsuks have a bonus! I am so excited! I told the HC about it today, and she didn't know it either (I'm sure she checked it out just to see if I was right). I LOVE that they added a bonus for doing that vault. Can you tell I'm happy?

 

[exgymnastmomx3]

I was going to ask, just because many gymnasts do a skill does that make the other option skill not as desired or not scored as high even if the value is the same? Because it would seem that seeing something different is a good thing in gymnastics, not a bad thing. We have a little of that with my dd on most events. She has heard a lot of "that's what all the good gymnasts are doing." But she doesn't care, she wants to do what SHE is good at, not what everyone else is good at. She is a good gymnast, strong and powerful, and did very well last season. I just wonder why the push by a lot of coaches to do what everyone else is doing? The reason skills get named after people is because they were the first to do it. Someone has to do something different now and then to keep the sport alive!

My dd does a Tsuk. She does it well. She is working on the layout, then she will work on the twist. She was scoring 9.2-9.35 with a 9.7 SV, so I think that's pretty good. That's only .5 - .35 deductions. If she can learn the 10SV vault and still get those deductions, that is a good score.

I've been saying this for 3 years (since my dd started level 7)--its OPTIONALS!!! not compulsories. They have the OPTION of doing what they do best. They have a chart of things to choose from!! So why does everyone have to do the same things? This is so frustrating to me (and my dd). Let them be innovative! Let them have a skill named for them! Let them shine!! Thank you SO MUCH for pointing out that 1/1 Tsuks have a bonus! I am so excited! I told the HC about it today, and she didn't know it either (I'm sure she checked it out just to see if I was right). I LOVE that they added a bonus for doing that vault. Can you tell I'm happy?

I certainly don't disagree at all. I think that gymnastics has become way too "cookie cutter" these days, especially from back when I did gymnastics when there was a lot of originality. I'm really not suggesting that everybody should do the same skills because that is "what is done" (that may have been how it came across in my post) but my understanding is that while it is not extremely difficult to get a tucked tsuck or a piked tsuck, a good layout tsuck and especially a good twisting tsuck (esp. more than a full) is extremely difficult and that is one of the reasons you don't see many. IF one has a good tsuck and a coach thinks they have the capability of potentially laying it out and twisting it, that's GREAT! I agree that optional gymnasts can and should work around their own strengths and weaknesses (I'm thinking Svetlana Khorkina). However, I've seen a lot of girls try to progress from a tucked/piked tsuck to a layout and my understanding is that while the Yurchenko entry might be more difficult to learn at first for many, it is easier to progress from later.

 

[CoachTodd]

Most gyms push the yurchenko simply because they are easier to do than the tsuk. You get more power off the board, you are coming into the table straight so you can decide when to twist and there a fewer mechanics to the vault. I haven't looked in a while but the Tsuk type vaults used to have a higher difficulty value in FIG than yurchenkos. I personally like to get the gymnast to do which ever they are best at.