WAG Tsuk versus Yurchenko

[Muddlethru]

I'm a parent, not a coach. Not even a former athlete at any level.

JMO, Bottom line, trust the coach and their process.

"Trust the coaches" is a term so overused and overrated. Agree with those above who believe "trust the coaches" is not always a good rule to follow. In addition to what has been stated above, coaches are people too and do make mistakes, overlook things and make errors in judgement; and things slip through the cracks including our children. Also they have biases. There are also good coaches and not so good coaches; experienced and inexperienced. We should be our children's biggest advocates; and yes there are crazy gym parents, but I think the majority are pretty sane and merely advocating for their children or merely curious. I don't see anything wrong.

 

[Committed]

So...... I definitely trust DDs coaches, but that doesn't mean I want to be in the dark about her gymnastics.
OP has a very valid question that doesn't shout CGM to me. It's one of those "learning opportunity" questions. There's a difference between asking why Suzie gets to compete a 3/2 while my kid only does a full (different values) & asking what is the reasoning between a coach choosing to teach different vaults (of same value).

All dds teammates train Yurchenkos, so I have been curious to know the answer.

 

[twinmomma]

those are NOT sports where a coaches decision has to do with life and limb. but i understand what you're saying.

I am going to have to respectfully disagree with you. My son has been on the receiving end of a near miss (and I'm talking millimeters) of a bat to the head in the catching position. Helmet or no, a 12 year old in full swing is going to cause damage. He's taken a ball to his eye socket full speed. Safety is key in baseball - bats are lethal weapons, and so are baseballs moving as fast as they move, and kids have died as a result of being hit. A coach chooses not to teach a child the proper way to be in the batters box, to avoid being hit by a swinging bat when he's catching, to focus on the things they need to, kids get hurt. All sports, carry some risk. And, even MORE to your point, if gymnastics coaches are truly life and limb responsible, then as a parent that's even MORE reason to keep me informed.

Understand I'm not saying I need to know because I don't trust or because I want to contradict. You have my child for hours upon hours a week. I pay you. Her safety, her success, her progress, is my business.

 

[LJL07]

But the OP never said she didn't trust the coaches or that it wasn't working!

Her daughter and team mates have started training these vaults.

Natural curiosity as to the differences between them and why they are training different vaults.
Interesting question and interesting answers from those that answered that question.

This is a place with a lot of very knowledgeable people who can answer the questions curious people wonder (without bothering their coaches and seeming like they are complaining).

Responses to questions of just trust the coach are not helpful, useful or interesting.

OP I found this interesting and I don't even have a kid doing wag anymore.
But I do now know a lot more about higher level vaults.

I agree. Whether my child cared one way or the other about the vault, I would be curious. It's a reasonable question. It is far more common to see the yurchenko at the college level than the tsuk entry. Seems like yurchenko offers more to build on like someone said upthread. So I would want to know rationale too.

 

[Deleted member 18037]

I never implied that "trust" happen blindly or in a vacuum.

Nor did I ever say don't ask questions. In fact I did say ask.

But the first place to ask why your coach or gym does something, would be to ask the gym/coach that you are at. Is it nice to know/learn things? Yep that is why I am here.

And it is especially nice when something is validated by multiple coaches. Helps build trust

I did however make a leap, in that at L8, the parent is not new to gymnastics. JMO but my kid is only finishing up L5, starting 6 in a few weeks but uptrains a lot of higher skills. Even at this point but certainly as she heads to L8 if I didn't trust her coaches we would be somewhere where I did.

And I am sure there are reasons and plans by the coaches and gyms. But the best place to find out what the reason and plan is at your gym, is to ask your gym. I am sure there are many ways and paths to get the kids ahead but the only ones who know what that plan is at a particular gym are the coaches at the gym. Just ask.

Again, folks were referencing a bunch of parents sitting around practice wonder the why of how things were being done at the gym.

Also I think as parents we wonder why things appear to take longer then we think to happen. The coaches have BTDT, what appears to be taking long to us, is business as usual to them.
The kip comes to mind. When..... when.... when.... now its all kips all the time. Coahes know that......... so when they say don't worry it will come. We as parents want a nice tidy timeline. But there isn't one.

Back a few years when I was a new gym parent (pre L4 for our kids) we were heading into our optional IGC season. Our kids weren't going to the high bar. They were just coming off L3, they could go to the high bar but weren't. So we had the stresssing, speculating parent conversations in the waiting room. Lots of whispering, complaining. I spent a few days caught up in it. Then I asked, coach says, yep they can go to the high bar and they won't score as well as staying on the low bar. Its optional, we want them to do what they do well. This season is about them learning to pick what they do well. And you know what, they had a very successful optional IGC season. And when they started L4 they were ready and have been on the high bar ever since. So a bunch of parents were stressing in the waiting room over what amounted to 12 weeks. And didn't ask. That is what I mean by trust. There was/is a plan for the girls at our gym. There wasn't a need to stress it in the waiting room. We just needed to ask.

JMO The best place to ask why a certain gym does something is to ask that gym. Asking is others is great and yes you learn a lot. But if you want to know the whys of your gym, ask your gym.

Learned a bunch about tsuks and yurchenkos here. Our gym trains tsuks first. Don't know why but I am sure they have their reasons.

 

[LJL07]

Also I think as parents we wonder why things appear to take longer then we think to happen. The coaches have BTDT, what appears to be taking long to us, is business as usual to them.
The kip comes to mind. When..... when.... when.... now its all kips all the time. Coahes know that......... so when they say don't worry it will come. We as parents want a nice tidy timeline. But there isn't one.

I sort of interpreted your first response to be coming from the perspective above--when will my child learn this compulsory skill? But the response just didn't seem relevant to the OP's question. It's apples and oranges. By the time a gymnast reaches level 8, which is a huge accomplishment as many gymnasts never reach that level, maybe there are more possibilities ahead and the gymnast's goals have changed from a level 4 trying to master a kip. Whether it is doing gym at the club level in college, getting to level 9 or even 10, maybe even college gym, the type of vault the gymnast masters might be relevant to those goals. So the stock "trust the coach" response felt a little flippant. Just trying to explain why it might be reasonable for a parent to ask tsuk versus yurchenko. And for various reasons, it might not always be easy to approach the coach and just ask, although that would be ideal in a perfect universe.

 

[hearts_and_stars]

Wow. Hadn't expected this thread to wander as much as it did, so let me clarify.

DD is perfectly happy doing what she is doing; I have no complaints about the vault coach, the vault she's doing, etc. I trust the coach's decisions because thus far she has been very successful. HOWEVER...I do know there is a difference between the Tsuk and the Yurchenko because they obviously look different. What I didn't know was what went into the coach's decision as to which to train first, when to start training the 2nd vault (whichever one they did not learn first), etc. The question was purely to satisfy my natural curiosity without wasting the coach's time for what would amount to a class on coaching vaults.

I'm not the type of parent to wonder why my kid is not doing something a teammate is because I recognize every kid is different and every coach approaches every kid differently, even in the same gym. DD gets the skills she gets when she gets them. As long as she feels she is successful and is having a good time, I have no cause for consternation. My natural curiosity, though, does often get the better of me and I figured this was a place I could come to to get that curiosity satisfied.

 

[Gymmommy71]

I look at the decision as similar to lefty versus righty, twisting direction, straight body vs straddle cast, pike vs straddle kip, etc. Gymnasts are just usually more physically suited for one or the other and coaches can just tell from a variety of tests in practice. Some are good at both and it's a close call (so those may work both), but some are overwhelming better at one or the other.

Sometimes fear can play a part too - as some find one or the other type of vault more scary.

 

[gymbeam]

Wow. Hadn't expected this thread to wander as much as it did, so let me clarify.

DD is perfectly happy doing what she is doing; I have no complaints about the vault coach, the vault she's doing, etc. I trust the coach's decisions because thus far she has been very successful. HOWEVER...I do know there is a difference between the Tsuk and the Yurchenko because they obviously look different. What I didn't know was what went into the coach's decision as to which to train first, when to start training the 2nd vault (whichever one they did not learn first), etc. The question was purely to satisfy my natural curiosity without wasting the coach's time for what would amount to a class on coaching vaults.

I'm not the type of parent to wonder why my kid is not doing something a teammate is because I recognize every kid is different and every coach approaches every kid differently, even in the same gym. DD gets the skills she gets when she gets them. As long as she feels she is successful and is having a good time, I have no cause for consternation. My natural curiosity, though, does often get the better of me and I figured this was a place I could come to to get that curiosity satisfied.

OP, don't worry. you really didn't have to clarify anything. we're all here because we're curious and invested in our child's sport. its just some folks can never, ever miss an opportunity to slap hands.

 

[beachgirl]

Wow. Hadn't expected this thread to wander as much as it did, so let me clarify.

DD is perfectly happy doing what she is doing; I have no complaints about the vault coach, the vault she's doing, etc. I trust the coach's decisions because thus far she has been very successful. HOWEVER...I do know there is a difference between the Tsuk and the Yurchenko because they obviously look different. What I didn't know was what went into the coach's decision as to which to train first, when to start training the 2nd vault (whichever one they did not learn first), etc. The question was purely to satisfy my natural curiosity without wasting the coach's time for what would amount to a class on coaching vaults.

I'm not the type of parent to wonder why my kid is not doing something a teammate is because I recognize every kid is different and every coach approaches every kid differently, even in the same gym. DD gets the skills she gets when she gets them. As long as she feels she is successful and is having a good time, I have no cause for consternation. My natural curiosity, though, does often get the better of me and I figured this was a place I could come to to get that curiosity satisfied.

I think most everyone understood and was interested in what you were asking, as it's a good question. Trust the coaches? That still doesn't answer the question, it's just a dumb phrase that is repeated by some way too often. I too would like to know the answer as currently my L7 daughter is doing both types of vaults and I had thought the yurchnko was more advanced and wondered why she continued practicing the tsuk after she got the yurcheko.

 

[eucoach]

I don't start teaching Yurchenkos to gymnasts whose hurdles and roundoffs aren't very very good. I might do some uphill drills from time to time but rather spend more time on tumbling basics and focus on the Tsukahara as a competitive vault first.
The main reason for me to forego the Yurchenko is a different one however: If the gymnast tends to balk frequently, especially on backwards skills or has/had fear issues with backwards tumbling, I don't feel the Yurchenko is the right vault for them at this time. Once I feel fear or balking doesn't happen any longer, I will start to teach a Yurchenko.

 

[raenndrops]

I am going to have to respectfully disagree with you. My son has been on the receiving end of a near miss (and I'm talking millimeters) of a bat to the head in the catching position. Helmet or no, a 12 year old in full swing is going to cause damage. He's taken a ball to his eye socket full speed. Safety is key in baseball - bats are lethal weapons, and so are baseballs moving as fast as they move, and kids have died as a result of being hit. A coach chooses not to teach a child the proper way to be in the batters box, to avoid being hit by a swinging bat when he's catching, to focus on the things they need to, kids get hurt. All sports, carry some risk. And, even MORE to your point, if gymnastics coaches are truly life and limb responsible, then as a parent that's even MORE reason to keep me informed.

Understand I'm not saying I need to know because I don't trust or because I want to contradict. You have my child for hours upon hours a week. I pay you. Her safety, her success, her progress, is my business.

Back when my dad was my baseball head coach, he used me as the "crash test dummy" for the equipment. That means that I put the catchers gear on and my dad hit me with the bat... Upside the head, in the chest protector, in the shin guards... at harder levels than any kid in the league would ever do. He threw baseballs at me too. He wanted to make sure the catcher would be safe in the gear.
He also made sure the catcher knew where to place himself to be as safe as possible.
If the gear fits right and is in good working order, it shouldnt be too dangerous (unless someone is deliberately trying to injure him)... especially with all the safety improvements over the years.

 

[Muddlethru]

Again, echoing some posts above, I think the majority understood your question OP. I did not directly respond to it because I was not certain I had the answer to your question. However, I felt compelled to post a response to some responses given because it does get old when as gymbeam states above, some people don't miss any opportunity to slap hands.

Anyway, my daughter trained only yurchenkos and majority of the gyms I know first train yurchenkos. At meets, for every 10 yurchenkos, I see one tsuk. It appears to me at the gyms I have personal information that they only train tsuks if yurchenkos are not working for the gymnast. One of the reasons I've been given is that yurchenkos are more progressive. Yes, it is a little harder to master at first because of the timing and technique it requires. But once mastered, it certainly has more options than tsuks. Also gymnasts need to be stronger to perform tsuks; whereas in yurchenkos, power can be generated through the skill itself. My daughter has been doing yurchenkos for almost 6 years now. So, I've not questioned it lately but that was what I was told a few years ago. I have to say tsuks are a welcome vault to me in the sea of yurchenkos.

 

[profmom]

With the change in SVs in NCAA, I think we will see more variety. Just on our team in the last year and heading into this season, I have seen a lot more different vaults. We used to be almost exclusively Yurchenkos, even at L8. This year, we have L8s working on (and in most cases competing) Yurchenkos, Tsuks, 1/4 on-1.5 offs, half ons with various twists off, roundoff entry twist offs, and even a hand front.

 

[CoachTodd]

Yurchenko -> body may not generate as much power with a front entry vault. May also have better shoulder flexibility.
Tsuk -> strong front entry for vault. May also lack flexibility for Yurchenko.

That's my basics of the 2 vaults. There are stiff folks that have power that can Yurchenko but my experience has been they have more difficulty doing it. The ones that can 2 both have their primary and secondary vaults for the Olympics already .

 

[SurpriseGymMom]

I understand what the OP means.... I am always curious as far as the whys and hows of things, and pass no judgement one way or the other! Sure, some parents are likely in the viewing area going "ooh, little Suzie is training *that* vault, so clearly the coach thinks she is a better vaulter than little Sally" etc, I have heard enough catty parent talk to imagine it..!
Our HC told me that different kids are simply better suited for different vaults, and he chooses their first flipping vaults based on his knowledge of them as gymnasts (which is far better than their parents' knowledge). None is better than the other, just different. If there are gymnasts who are on the fence or can do both, they will be allowed to try both and see which one works best.