Women Tucks...knees in or out?

[Pea'sMom]

Had a blast with our girls at the AT&T cup (more then I thought I would!) Question popped up and I have no idea what the answer is, so I figured who better to ask. Some girls were doing tucks with their knees in, some were doing them with their knees out (like the boys). Is there any reason to do one vs the other? Does is change the value of the skill?

 

[Faith]

Knees out- tighter tuck, faster rotation, skill is easier.

Knees in is neater, tidier, and should score higher.

Same value.

 

[txgymfan]

Knees in tucks look so much nicer, especially when they are really tucked!

 

[Pea'sMom]

Thanks! Figured as much, but had no idea.

 

[Muddlethru]

For higher level gymnasts my observation is knees are out for double front tucks. Double fronts are harder. Knees are usually in for double backs. I rarely see knees out for double tucks as it is a fairly easy skill.

 

[Pea'sMom]

The question came up while watching the Brazilian on beam. Her discount was a double back with knees out. We were just mulling while eating over priced popped corn We assumed it was easier but that was just our guess, had to ask the experts!

 

[Deleted member 14190]

Knees out is called "Cowboy". Knees in is called.... clean.

 

[Geoffrey Taucer]

Knees out makes the skill easier and safer, but is a form deduction.

However, for skills that flip more than once forward, most coaches agree that the safety benefits of cowboying to outweigh the score benefits of keeping the knees together; this is why handspring fronts on vault and double fronts on floor are almost universally done with knees apart.

 

[Deleted member 14190]

Knees out makes the skill easier and safer, but is a form deduction.

However, for skills that flip more than once forward, most coaches agree that the safety benefits of cowboying to outweigh the score benefits of keeping the knees together; this is why handspring fronts on vault and double fronts on floor are almost universally done with knees apart.

Hand fronts on vault??? If you have to cowboy a hand front on vault you shouldn't be doing it. Hand double front sure. strongly disagree that cowboy is universally used in hand fronts

 

[Geoffrey Taucer]

*shrug* I'll confess it's been a few years since last time I was at a meeting where anybody was competing a hand front. I haven't -- and wouldn't -- teach the skill without a cowboy.

Are we agreed that a double front on floor (or as a dismount) should generally be cowboyed?

 

[Deleted member 14190]

*shrug* I'll confess it's been a few years since last time I was at a meeting where anybody was competing a hand front. I haven't -- and wouldn't -- teach the skill without a cowboy.

Are we agreed that a double front on floor (or as a dismount) should generally be cowboyed?

=
I have seen doubles done both ways, particularly off bars. So of course safety first as it helps the spot. I have just never been a fan of front cowboy unless it's a double flip of some sort, or back tumbling unless it's a triple back off bars. In my opinion the hand front with a cowboy does nothing to minimize the hyperextended knees that occurs during the kickout. I have still seen some pretty bad injuries with the cowboy fronts on vault over the years, I saw one girl land on her feet and butt at the same time (cowboy) and snap her head back so hard that it took her out of the meet. The posture of the cowboy taught to her made that happen, knees up high pulling with back flat and chin up...... My position on hand fronts is to never adjust the flip position or speed because that does not improve the vault. By forcing the same position the gymnast is forced to make adjustments on the entry and block to attain the skill. I will say that the best way to minimize (not eliminate) the hyperextended knees is the first pick a child with insane speed and very strong legs, then teach them to never extend all the way on the kick. And finally, teach them pike and it cuts down the possibility of the hyperextensions because they start with straight legs and then bend them as they hit the ground instead of the other way around. Hope that makes sense. If you go to the private coaching forum I have some video of my front handspring front kids.