UK comps, fair?

[putri]

Well, this weekend, Sapphire, was dd's first big comp and it was great fun.

But, while it was fun and dd did pretty well, the comp doesn't seem so fair because the skill levels vary so much. On beam for example, there were kids doing bwo bhs and another doing a forward roll and something else. Then there's the elite 8yrs old who were fabulous (those kids from Birmingham were gorgeous gymnasts) against 12yrs old doing a minimum level 5 moves.

While I can get pass age, wouldn't it each child's esteem if they were competing against kids at the same level AND skills?

Kind of like in the US. Every level 5 does x moves and level 6 y moves.

At Sapphire it was like watching US (old) level 4s with kids at level 6/7. Just doesn't seem fair.

 

[Flossyduck]

I'm guessing by the skill range you're talking about that you mean level 5? In which case there are big variations regionally in what kids are allowed to compete, so when they take those routines to one place the differences show. I think we've all agreed on here many times that there needs to be some sort of agreed skill list for level 5 to iron out that anomaly.

The other levels tend to be much more even as the skill requirements for levels 4,3 and above are nationally set - so then it's just divided into age groups, which is in effect the same as the US system.

There will always be some clubs who will take girls who don't quite have the required skills, just for the experience.

 

[putri]

I'm guessing by the skill range you're talking about that you mean level 5? In which case there are big variations regionally in what kids are allowed to compete, so when they take those routines to one place the differences show. I think we've all agreed on here many times that there needs to be some sort of agreed skill list for level 5 to iron out that anomaly.

The other levels tend to be much more even as the skill requirements for levels 4,3 and above are nationally set - so then it's just divided into age groups, which is in effect the same as the US system.

There will always be some clubs who will take girls who don't quite have the required skills, just for the experience.

Yes, level 5

Well, hope BG does something. While this is my first big comp, there was another club from our area who sent more less the same kids. Again they did the minimum and acquired almost the lowest scores. I have no idea how the kids felt but I thought the comp was just fair. Or maybe their club wasn't right in sending them.

 

[bogwoppit]

I think tney need to make the L5 skills the same for the whole country. This would address many of the problems.

 

[vbbf]

I also think the compulsory level 5 should be set the same for the country. Some regions have totally different skills than others. Some regions have now put in parts of the new compulsory level 4 skills in there compulsory level 5, which is an advantage to those gymnasts because then they are already working level 4 skills for level 5. However other regions keep it really simple with no level 4 skills in which i think is unfair to the gymnasts because the other regions then get a head start practising skills for level 4.

 

[putri]

I know gym is a competitive sport but the kids in it need to not only have fun but also feel good about themselves.

I also felt odd about the scoring system. One girl did giants on the high bar but still scored less than my dd (my dd was 11 something and she was 10 something) who did the "normal" level 5 stuff. I mean my dd can't do half the stuff the other child did on the high bar!

 

[Faith]

I think with compulsories though you should have a coach capable of keeping kids on track for elite, so it shouldn't really matter as much which skills they get to compete at compulsory, they can do voluntaries and invitationals if they want to practice level 4 skills in competition.

Putri I agree- I've posted before at the huge skill level difference in our regional voluntaries. Thing is the difficult skills have a relatively small value- so some clubs prefer to focus on completely clean routines- if you put in a dodgy giant you'll get a bigger deduction than the skill is worth, or even not get the skill altogether if you don't go completely to handstand before the giant. But difficult routines definitely do better if they hit the skills.

I think there should be a skill cap for out of age kids. In our region we have kids who just stay at level 5 for years, even though they have some really high level skills!

 

[Jenny]

I agree with you Faith. I have wondered if a cap on start values would be the way to go. This could be (should be) different for in age and out of age girls at each level. It would have to vary by piece too. Set by BG so it could apply to all invitationals and regionals up and down the country. That would encourage clubs to travel more for away meets.

Then kids could put in one or two harder skills when they have them but would have to reduce the rest of the start value on that piece to compensate if they add too many. I am not a judge though and I don't know if that is practical. I just like the idea of everyone starting from a similar start value but with flexibility on skills (leaving set skills for grades as usual).

In my mind (haha) it would work something like this. Child A puts a flick in on beam in level 5, another does a russian lever, another a change leg leap. Performing all 3 in the same routine would put you over the Start value cap. Each child allowed to show to their strengths without stacking the start values so high it isn't a level playing field. Child who wants to perform all 3 is then hopefully encouraged to move to level 4.

I am sick of hearing about BWO BHS in level 5 beam and front somi walk out round off flick full twist in level 4 floor. But at least this way the rest of the routine would be reduced to equal the start value.

BG so need a working party to look at these issues and find a more cohesive country wide approach to move forwards. I volunteer

 

[Flossyduck]

A cap on start value is a good idea. It allows kids who can do some bigger skills to try them or show them off in a competition environment even if they're not ready for the next level, but also gives kids with easier skills a shot too.

I agree with you Faith that the elite gyms are already working their level 4 skills before they enter voluntary 5, so just because they compete simpler routines at level 5 isn't an indication that they are being held back at all or disadvantaged compared to regions which allow harder skills. Looks are deceptive and what they can do in the gym is what is important.

Ours is one of the regions with fairly simple level 5 routines. I wasn't aware of that when dd did hers, it was all very new. I do remember her being frustrated that they weren't putting her best skills in the routine and wondering why. I don't really understand why they choose to do it that way - maybe to ensure that gyms are concentrating on correct form and not tempted to throw skills which aren't polished and competition ready? Maybe to give smaller clubs a chance to compete levels.

 

[Iwannabemargo]

Preaching to the converted here ! P&F is only now learning to flick on beam and starting to do giant preps in loops. It was the same in Wiltshire a couple of weeks ago. 0.5 bonus for flicks on beam, giants on bars etc plus acro connection and somies on beam - at level 5. Poor old P&F said its just not fair !

 

[vbbf]

My gym spends all january and february just working on the level skills so i was thinking that the regions with the easier compulsory level 5 skills would be stuck the whole 2 months just working on simple skills. The regions with the harder skills would still be working on level 4 skills while practising for level 5 because that is part of their level 5 skills. My gym still works on the higher level skills throughout the year, i was just thinking about that 2 months were its only the compulsory level skills. One region does bwo bwo on beam for level 5 whereas anuther just does a cartwheel. So they could spend 2 months just working cartwheels whereas the other region is still practising bwo's which is a level 4 skill. I dont understand why they have different compulsory level 5s for each region. I think compulsory level 5 should be set the same nationally then every1 is working the same skills.

 

[Flossyduck]

I can see how you might see it that way if your gym spends two months just working skills for the level. Ours don't do that, they are training generally ,working the harder skills and business as usual right up until quite close to the level. My dd was given her routines two weeks before the comp, spent two weeks doing some extra hours to polish them up and competed them. She used the same floor music she had in March, but completely different routine. Some changed the music as well and the whole thing was new.

After the regionals they will spend the next month or so tweaking and further polishing for nationals, but will still be working on their stuff for next year as well alongside it.

The skills on apparatus are slotted in when they are ready - so they are generally preparing for level 3 right now, but take out the unnecessary bits for level 4, rather than the other way round.

I totally agree with everyone about level 5. It seems crazy for it to be set regionally. Someone once said to me "you don't know how good you are until you compete level 4". I totally understand why now!

That's our gym and they all do things differently and they all believe their way is the best. But in then end, after 1000's of hours of training and several years in the sport I suspect it is unlikely to make much difference by the higher levels - the same gyms seem to be successful whatever their region or training preferences!

 

[bogwoppit]

In Canada we have an all optional system like the UK and at each level there are required skills and bonus skills. The number of bonuses are capped and the actual bonus for a skill is very small. For example at the P2 level the bonus skills are a salto/aerial on floor for 0.2, you can do three different ones for 0.6 total but they need to be perfect or the deductions can be greater than the value of the bonus. This is the same through all our levels. SO you do see girls with greater amplitude on their swings etc, but you will not see prohibited skills.

Usually the cleanest routines win regardless of the skill level. SO for the kids who do not have many higher skills coaches should be aiming for very clean routines, sloppy skills just get tenthed to death under FIG.

 

[Iwannabemargo]

Those split leaps can be murder !

 

[Jenny]

I can see how you might see it that way if your gym spends two months just working skills for the level. Ours don't do that, they are training generally ,working the harder skills and business as usual right up until quite close to the level. My dd was given her routines two weeks before the comp, spent two weeks doing some extra hours to polish them up and competed them. She used the same floor music she had in March, but completely different routine. Some changed the music as well and the whole thing was new.

After the regionals they will spend the next month or so tweaking and further polishing for nationals, but will still be working on their stuff for next year as well alongside it.

The skills on apparatus are slotted in when they are ready - so they are generally preparing for level 3 right now, but take out the unnecessary bits for level 4, rather than the other way round.

I totally agree with everyone about level 5. It seems crazy for it to be set regionally. Someone once said to me "you don't know how good you are until you compete level 4". I totally understand why now!

That's our gym and they all do things differently and they all believe their way is the best. But in then end, after 1000's of hours of training and several years in the sport I suspect it is unlikely to make much difference by the higher levels - the same gyms seem to be successful whatever their region or training preferences!

Is your dd going to nationals for level 4 Flossy?

 

[Faith]

Jenny I'm in too

My personal bugbear is the requirement for a) split leap/jump at level 5, b) for it to have a connection bonus and c) for the 180 deg requirement.

So if you don't make the split leap you lose 1.0 off your difficulty straight away- 0.5 for connecting it and 0.5 for having all required elements. So unless you're the hyperflexible kind it's pretty impossible to get a good beam score- looking at one comp only 4 out of 16 kids got their full difficulty rating (or above) even though most of them had minimum requirements. Plus it's very subjective- some kids were deducted when they didn't seem any worse than those who weren't. Like someone said on another thread- if you're a muscly build it's very difficult to appear to go to 180.

Get an 8 or a 9 on beam because of the 1.0 split leap deduction and you're never going to score out of level 5 (last year I think the move up score was an AA of 46 ) For some reason they don't seem so harsh on floor...but I haven't checked the rules lately so maybe there isn't a connection bonus and a required element bonus to lose..

I also think they should alter the age restrictions. In our region you can't compete WAG before level 5 the year you turn 8. It'd be nice if they had at least one level 6 comp with really restricted difficulty so proper novices or 7 year olds could have a go on 4 pieces. At the moment it's a bit like going straight into competing at US level 5 or 6 (new).

Difficulty restriction should maybe be on an AA basis rather than each piece? Then a good beam and floor worker can show off her stuff if her bars and vault aren't up to the next level.

 

[Jenny]

Some regions have level 6 and even 7 and 8 before level 5 so kids start competing at a basic cartwheel type level. Going in at level 5 is too hard I think! Our region doesn't have a 180 split requirement on leaps at level 5. It is either 135 or 150 I can't remember exactly.

 

[bogwoppit]

SO what happens at comps like Sapphire, or nationals. Who decides what rules are used for L5 comps that pull gymmies in from many regions?

 

[Jenny]

The host gym provides the criteria for their invitationals. Rules for in age level 4,3,2 are given by BG. Level 5 and below and out of age levels are decided by regions.

 

[Iwannabemargo]

The level 5 rules are vaguely similar though, just the bonuses are different. Here under 160 degrees on the split leap and you Loose the move, plus connection values, criples P&F every time. Our invitational we have added a level six so the tineys can have a go too