Women USAG TOPs 2000 note to gymnasts

[notthatmom]

Don't you guys have 2-3 day school field trips in 3rd or 4th grade when kids are just 8-10 years old?
In my country we do, and children stay overnight, usually in rooms of 4, while the teachers stay in different rooms.
So to me, the fact that they had the girls stay in a hotel without a chaperone in the room, is not weird at all.

In Nassar's case, no amount of safeguarding could have probably prevented the abuse. Remember - he abused one of his victims while her mother was in the room. And as far as I remember, he did not have much prior access to her before.

Of course - listing him as a person to call in a case of emergency by a minor female is just weird and very inappropriate.....and, as we now know, naive.

Nope, we never did. We had science camp in 6th grade where we had high school students of the same gender in the room with us as counselors.

I traveled with my high school, and my ice skating team but I was much older, we had chaperones, and teachers/other students were not allowed in our rooms.
When traveling with my team, no male coaches or parents were even allowed to travel with us or stay at the same hotel.

 

[Jard.the.gymnast]

The first time we did this i was 10 1/2, the rest of my class was almost 12 or 12. I am always a year younger than the rest and i didn't have my birthday yet. We were on camp, with about 12 people in one room. The teachers had their own room.
What country are you in, if i may ask?

Don't you guys have 2-3 day school field trips in 3rd or 4th grade when kids are just 8-10 years old?
In my country we do, and children stay overnight, usually in rooms of 4, while the teachers stay in different rooms.
So to me, the fact that they had the girls stay in a hotel without a chaperone in the room, is not weird at all.

In Nassar's case, no amount of safeguarding could have probably prevented the abuse. Remember - he abused one of his victims while her mother was in the room. And as far as I remember, he did not have much prior access to her before.

Of course - listing him as a person to call in a case of emergency by a minor female is just weird and very inappropriate.....and, as we now know, naive.

 

[sce]

Don't you guys have 2-3 day school field trips in 3rd or 4th grade when kids are just 8-10 years old?
In my country we do, and children stay overnight, usually in rooms of 4, while the teachers stay in different rooms.
So to me, the fact that they had the girls stay in a hotel without a chaperone in the room, is not weird at all.

In Nassar's case, no amount of safeguarding could have probably prevented the abuse. Remember - he abused one of his victims while her mother was in the room. And as far as I remember, he did not have much prior access to her before.

Of course - listing him as a person to call in a case of emergency by a minor female is just weird and very inappropriate.....and, as we now know, naive.

I don't necessarily expect a chaperone in the room but I did nthink chaperobes on sight assigned to groups of girls is a good idea. I assume for your scho trip there are chaperobes, nearby?

 

[Deleted member 18037]

I understand what you are saying and honestly, I speak for myself. No. I would not let my child travel alone. I never have and I never will. Even a trip to Great America, and she is 13. Her coach will tell you. I emailed and said I was coming along. Anything can happen. I try not to be overbearing, but my life experiences have kept me on high alert. I have been THIS way with my children since day one.

This.

Hypothetical. If someone were to say your daughter will absolutely win the Olympics but it will require long overnight periods where you have absolutely no say in who she comes into contact with and going with her during these periods is not an option. For us it would be sorry, I guess another kid will be winning.

Again, none of this is new information. Predators groom not just their victim but the victims family and they need opportunity. And when folks go why are child predators around children. Well where else would they try to find jobs? Would a child predator rather have a job say cleaning a boxing gym for men or a school? Dr Nassar wasn't going to be a proctologist for a bunch of grown up men.

And folks with nothing to hide, don't hide and willingly protect themselves and their clients, students and patients etc... as well as themselves. Our priest is doesn't spend time alone with altar servers. My dentist's chairs are in an open room. My ob doesn't conduct an exam without a nurse present.

And regarding the grown ups my kid comes into contact with. She goes to the doc, I'm in the room. Her daycare, yes they would prefer as a parent you not come in, unplanned and disrupt thing. But they would never say no you can not come in. Music lessons, I get you don't want me sitting right there, but oh no there will be no closed doors. And no my kid doesn't do camps that have rules limiting access. If my kid needs a moment to touch base with parents, she gets it. But that is how we parent.

I remember when we first started at our current gym. There was a meet a few hours away and I was scheduled to work and my husband was away. My kid was barely 8. And I told the coach we couldn't do the meet unless I could work out the schedule. The coach suggested she go with another family. Umm no. And it really had nothing to do with trusting the other family. I did. However SH. Car accidents, fires, injuries, whatever. I just wasn't going to be that far from my kid if hospitals, metal crunching, ambulances ended up happening. She was a little girl at the time. I'm not sure what I would do now, but she is approaching 12 and would have a say.

The best way to "bullet proof" your kid is to teach them to speak up for themselves. Teach them it is OK to question. Trust their instincts, especially regarding the ick factor. Make sure they have clear boundaries about how and when they can be touched and by who. And most importantly to TELL, TELL, TELL.

So again when I get my backside chewed out for saying kids need to learn to speak up for themselves this is where I come from. Yes you have every right to say NO. To be crystal clear where your boundaries are. Be it what name you want to be called and who you are alone with, and saying that makes me uncomfortable. Yes they need to know you have their back but they are their own first line of defense.

So its kind of a disconnect to me when folks say kids can't question their coaches, yet would think nothing of letting their kids go off with them. And this is directed at no one in particular here but just the overall conversations I have seen happen here.

It starts with NO, I don't care how talented my kid is but you don't get to deny me access to her, period.

I highly recommend, Protecting The Gift, by Gavin DeBecker.

Link Removed

 

[Deleted member 18037]

Does anyone know why we evolved to not trust men? I do it myself too, but in the end we are all human. We have the same needs and we want the same things. Why is the men untrusted and the women trusted (speaking in general)

I can't speak for anyone else but for me its not a man thing. Its a grown up with kid thing.

I would simply not allow anyone to be with my kid and deny me access to her. End of story.

 

[eucoach]

What country are you in, if i may ask?

Close to yours but not a neighbouring country. ;-)

Kids here go on yearly 1-week school field trips by either 4th or 5th grade with only teachers as chaperones. Parents are never, under any circumstances, allowed to accompany a child. The only exception I've heard of was a child that was in a wheel chair and needed one-on-one care. Children also HAVE to go. Only in extremely severe cases of homesickness, they have been allowed to go home early.
Of course, certain rules are no-brainers. Teachers don't hang out in students' rooms and vice versa. However, we always check if everyone gets up in the morning and goes to bed at night. Also a no-brainer - female teachers take care of female students and male teachers take care of male students.

Anyways.....my point is actually that I think that no amount of rules could have prevented the Nassar scandal. However, I think it would have come to light a lot earlier if the gymnasts had been in a safer environment. Which includes not only rules about who can and cannot be alone with them but also a much more positive camp and competition environment.

 

[Deleted member 18037]

Don't you guys have 2-3 day school field trips in 3rd or 4th grade when kids are just 8-10 years old?
In my country we do, and children stay overnight, usually in rooms of 4, while the teachers stay in different rooms.
So to me, the fact that they had the girls stay in a hotel without a chaperone in the room, is not weird at all.

Not in our district. Not until middle school which in our district would make most kids older than 13. And then only teachers can be "official" chaperones, because they have to have had background checks and be cleared (and yes I realize that is not a guarantee of safety which circles back to bullet proofing your kid).

And kids always have the option to opt out.

And when the time comes I'm likely to hook up with other parents to be in the vicinity should there be some disaster or accident that happens. Because while I can't be "officially" on the trip, no one can stop me from going to the location.

 

[twinmomma]

Let me jump in and say I absolutely would let my kid go to an event with another family. In fact, my son's baseball team went to Puerto Rico this summer and his best friend's family could not afford to go so he went with us. To New York, to Puerto Rico, and back. And I would trust that same family to take my kid somewhere. So this isn't a "I would NEVER let my kid go anywhere without me" sort of thing with me. Our 6th grade goes to outdoor science camp. Kids I know go to sleepaway camp all the time. I'm talking about the things that set off your radar and you do anyways. Like I said before, things can happen right under your nose, such as my former classmate abusing his swim students IN THEIR HOMETOWN. For me it's about using judgment we've used their whole lives and not getting swayed by vague or grandiose promises.

 

[BachFlyer]

And none of it is new information. We know USAG is part of the problem. That was the point I was trying to make.

That it happened of course matters. Posting the letter now, doesn't.

We know it happpened.

Well, it matters from a legal standpoint, to the victims, because this is around the same time that the first reports were happening and actually could affect both criminal and cases. While I would expect that anyone involved in the current proceedings has already heard about this through their lawyers, it is actually relevant. And at minimum it could be interesting to those of us in the community who are following the case very closely.

It also matters because sometimes these little pieces of information are what helps a victim or a victim's family decide to come forward. If you are acquainted with some things happening behind the scenes, you would see this pattern, where new information is released and, for whatever reason, that little bit of knowledge made victims feel comfortable in reporting. I know for a fact that there are people whom this is happened to that have not gone public or joined a lawsuit, for their own reasons I'm sure, but perhaps this little piece of information might change that for someone. I believe that the victims are entitled to compensation as well as justice. So if posting this helps inform one person in anyway, then I think it matters a lot. You have to remember that you are talking to a community where some of the victims could actually be a part of this current conversation.

Yes we know that USAG was part of the problem, the sheds more light on how much of a problem. If my child was still in position to be attending camps there, this is information that I would want to have. It would allow me to ask questions and make a more informed decision about whether or not she would be attending in the future. Also I'm quite the opposite of you, in that my kids have been allowed a lot of freedoms, I don't hover or try to control every potential danger.I do tend to trust a lot of people with my kids. Like some other people here, I believe that allowing a little more balanced freedom allows kids to learn how to handle difficult situations, because we won't be able to control everything forever. Don't you think this letter could add dimension to the preventative discussions that people are having in their homes?

 

[Deleted member 18037]

Yes we know that USAG was part of the problem, the sheds more light on how much of a problem. If my child was still in position to be attending camps there, this is information that I would want to have. It would allow me to ask questions and make a more informed decision about whether or not she would be attending in the future. Also I'm quite the opposite of you, in that my kids have been allowed a lot of freedoms, I don't hover or try to control every potential danger.I do tend to trust a lot of people with my kids. Like some other people here, I believe that allowing a little more balanced freedom allows kids to learn how to handle difficult situations, because we won't be able to control everything forever. Don't you think this letter could add dimension to the preventative discussions that people are having in their homes?

Why would anyone not ask questions and make an informed decision regarding who is caring for and responsible for their children? Why would anyone need to have a letter like this to "start" making an informed decision.

And don't assume that I am cautious, that I "hover". In fact I tend to extend more freedom and responsibility to her because we have had these kinds of discussions from a very young age. Don't confuse with what I allow her to do, with how much I trust the adults around her. I trust her, because of the discussions in our home. I trust her because she knows if she questions an adult I will have her back, so she doesn't have to be afraid to tell. We have taught boundaries from the beginning.

I do not however trust adults just because they are teachers coaches, counselors etc..... Those folks have to earn my trust and respect and a good first step is to not tell me as a parent, I can't when it comes to "me and mine". Just because I could walk into daycare at anytime doesn't mean I did. Did I make sure that I in fact by testing it? Oh hell yes. I don't consider that hovering. I consider that part of making an informed decision. And then we move on. That has not one thing about what she is capable of regarding her independence. If my kid wanted to go to a sleep over camp I would certainly allow it. As long as it was a camp that didn't deny me access or not allow her to reach out if she felt the need. That is not hovering, that is making sure she has control.

Even with the silly things. My kid has never liked to be "touched" on her belly. Not tickled, not rubbed, not those fun raspberries as a baby. Loves back rubs but stay away from her belly. Since she could say the word NO. We respect her boundaries and that is where the lessons start. We tell her if a coach, teacher, sitter, brother, cousin, friend, anyone is asking her to do something that makes her uncomfortable she is to say NO. Including us, her parents. She defines her boundaries, belly off limits. Yep we respect your right.

Again, I don't need a letter to open these kind of discussions with her. We have been having them for a very long time. But lets say someone has never had these kind of discussions. Why would the story itself not be enough. Really, I'm sure legally, this lettter is in some way valuable.

And I am truly not being dismissive of how big a deal child abuse and sexual abuse is. But this letter isn't needed to make the point. If folks are waiting to have discussions based on this kind of letter. Its really late. The horse has left the barn.

 

[BachFlyer]

No one is waiting for anything, honest to god that's what you read into my reply? I'm sure you're aware that you aren't the only parent having conversations about boundaries and trust with your children, and also respects their children'a bodily autonomy, right? What this does is brings up another specific and possible scenario that one might not have thought of (not you of course, you seem to have thought of everything) and one that a kid could be faced with. It's informative. My kid has been to the camp. I was not aware of any directive like this. If I had been, we might have had a conversation about it specifically, and others might going forward. At minimum, posting this opens up a dialogue where people can talk about specific situations. I will reiterate that knowing about this "directive" means that we'll be keeping an eye out for USAG to change it. Even though Nassar is gone, it needs to change.
You haven't been around this sport as long as some, so you might not see how this awful situation has shifted the conversation. The more we bring to light and discuss this kind of stuff in our community, the harder it is to dismiss the red flags in a sport where the power dynamic has historically leaned away from the parents and kids.

You, perhaps, may be blessed to have the perfect gym and coaching situation where the lines of authority are never blurred and kids' voices are always respected. Your situation may be one far removed from the rest of this gym world that tends to keep parents at arms length. And you may have the perfect words, insight and balance of control that will abort any dicey situations with your child now or in the future. But others might not, so it's good to share and talk.

Empathy means understanding that people come to things from all different starting points.

 

[chalkbowl]

I find it bizarre that a male is listed as a contact for a bunch of young female athletes and the athletes were outright told NOT to contact their coaches. Why wasn't just Debbie's name on the list? She was the female trainer on site...makes zero sense to me. Naively I always assumed that Debbie and Larry worked as a team as far as athlete safety and injuries were concerned :-/

 

[mandkmom]

It was 17 years ago. It no longer matters.

He was part of the organization in a place high trust. Many balls were dropped. Turns out he is a nasty dude and he is now gone.

Would you tell a sexual assault victim that them being assaulted 17 years ago no longer matters???

I've read your other replies and I think you meant no harm. But your statement that it no longer matters made me ill. I'd ask you to consider your words carefully. USAG hasn't done a good job since the scandal broke of addressing the enormity of the issue. And just because Nasser is in jail doesn't make the culture or environment go away. It's important to recognize what happened and why. That's the only way to find a way forward and ensure this doesn't continue.

 

[raenndrops]

It points to the culture that puts 8-10 year old girls in cabins alone at night without a chaperone, and neglects to realize that bad things can happen in that situation.

This was for a stay in a hotel, not in cabins at the ranch. That was part of the reason they had the line about always traveling in the hotel property in PAIRS (for safety). In a hotel, it is more difficult to put an adult in every room.

 

[raenndrops]

Don't you guys have 2-3 day school field trips in 3rd or 4th grade when kids are just 8-10 years old?
In my country we do, and children stay overnight, usually in rooms of 4, while the teachers stay in different rooms.
So to me, the fact that they had the girls stay in a hotel without a chaperone in the room, is not weird at all.

In Nassar's case, no amount of safeguarding could have probably prevented the abuse. Remember - he abused one of his victims while her mother was in the room. And as far as I remember, he did not have much prior access to her before.

Of course - listing him as a person to call in a case of emergency by a minor female is just weird and very inappropriate.....and, as we now know, naive.

The earliest we did extended school trips was 6th grade (11-12 years old). We stayed in cabins… there were 2 "rooms" in each cabin. The 20-something counselor/chaperone was on one side with 12 girls and the other side had 14 girls and shared the same chaperone. In between the two rooms was a small bathroom (toilet and sink).
Every cabin was set up this way.
There was a separate shower "cabin."
In the evenings, the girls took showers. Male AND female counselors congregated around the front of the building - reportedly to keep the boys from trying to sneak in.
In the mornings, the boys took their showers. I would guess that the counselors were around then too, but idk.
The teachers had their own 2 cabins - one male and one female… but they had their own showers too.

NOW, I did travel once with my co-ed baseball team for a tournament when I was 10. It was a 3 day trip. They got adjoining rooms for the girls (and a parent chaperone stayed in one of the rooms with the 3 youngest girls - 7 year olds). The other 4 of us girls were in the other room. We were 8, 9, 10, and 10. They did the same for the boys, splitting them into 2 adjoining rooms.

We all thought nothing of not having an adult IN the room with us.

 

[BachFlyer]

This was for a stay in a hotel, not in cabins at the ranch. That was part of the reason they had the line about always traveling in the hotel property in PAIRS (for safety). In a hotel, it is more difficult to put an adult in every room.

I'm sorry, I missed the part about the hotel. I still disagree that it was ok to have him as the point of contact. It makes no rational sense at all. I get that he was trusted but that decision on he part of USAG is a huge red flag to me due to their lack of judgement. So whether my child was staying or traveling with USAG, actually any team circumstance, as a parent this is a good reminder that I want to be clear of the protocol for handling athlete issues/needs while away. I'm glad it was brought up and is being talked about.

 

[BachFlyer]

It totally makes more sense to have chaperones next-door or down the hall in a hotel. I thought this was at the Ranch, and in hindsight, it's not a great set up to have the girls cabins so far from the adults. It wouldn't be easy for s young kid to navigate the property in the event of an emergency in the middle of the night, without a cell phone and the comfort of being able to go to their personal coach. I don't recall asking about emergency procedures but I wish I had.

 

[duyetanh]

The whole thing just sucks. Completely. For ALL involved.
And forgive me, but I hope Nassar fries......

 

[notthatmom]

The whole thing just sucks. Completely. For ALL involved.
And forgive me, but I hope Nassar fries......

I'll gladly fire up the grill

 

[MabelSt]

Don't you guys have 2-3 day school field trips in 3rd or 4th grade when kids are just 8-10 years old?
In my country we do, and children stay overnight, usually in rooms of 4, while the teachers stay in different rooms.
So to me, the fact that they had the girls stay in a hotel without a chaperone in the room, is not weird at all.

In Nassar's case, no amount of safeguarding could have probably prevented the abuse. Remember - he abused one of his victims while her mother was in the room. And as far as I remember, he did not have much prior access to her before.

Of course - listing him as a person to call in a case of emergency by a minor female is just weird and very inappropriate.....and, as we now know, naive.

No, not until 8th grade or high school