WAG What is the physical limit of skills? Where will WAG plateau?

DON'T LURK... Join The Discussion!

Members see FEWER ads

ChalkBucket may earn a commission through product links on the site.
Interesting; do you think we're "a long way" as in the difference from 1936 to 2012, or a "long way" as in we could add one or two more twists or whatnot to the hardest skills? What are the hardest skills you can see happening in the future on each event? As in, do you think it's possible to, say, land a triple arabian on beam (just for random example), or will that never be possible on the current equipment? If those things are theoretically possible right now, given enough time to train them, do you think that means the average age of Olympic gymnast will rise due to the necessary extra years worth of training it would take to get there?



Good point, but don't you think there will be a limit to how much elite coaches share with each other, with the intention of not helping out their gymnasts' competition too much? I'd love to believe most elite coaches are most concerned mostly with the progression of the sport overall, but I know they are all human, as well, and want to win.

yikes! arabian triple front off beam?? no way. when the beam is at FIG 125cm, the height from the top of the beam to the floor is 49 1/4 inches. now put in the required 20cm (8 inch) mat with the required 4 inch CLM (competition landing mat) and that leaves 39 1/4 inches from the top of the beam to the top of the mat. that's 3 feet and 3 1/4 inches. so in theory, if the gymnast was 6 foot tall, weighed 90 lbs and had the twitch and power of Prudonova to move that 6 foot mass then MAYBE a skill like that could be done. or, the gymnast was 3 foot tall, weighed 45 lbs and had the twitch and power of Prudonova then MAYBE a skill like that could be done. until that kind of anatomical anomaly comes long? no way.

or let's look at a tuck double back ON the beam from a round off or flip flop. this could be done. and in fact, has been done in training by 1 or 2 Chinese, Russians and Romanians. But the risk is too great for injury and falling. now, if they made the beam 6 inches wide and could make the balance beam like a Russian circus bar that was stable, this skill could be done easily and safely even when a mistake was made. but why hasn't this been done yet? because the FIG does not want balance beam to go that acrobatic direction.

boys high bar. quad somersaults. yes, these are possible. but the magnitude of the sheer force alone on the landing is a bit scary. simply, a 140lb man leaving the bar at near 30 miles an hour (yes, a good giant with tap) and launching himself 5 feet above the bar (approx 14 feet from the landing mat) then somersaulting 4 times (rotational velocity) that could find the athletes body weighing more than 20 times it's mass on the landing. well, you can't make a mistake cause pieces of bone or cartilage would shoot out of the body like a 45 caliber bullet from a gun. (embellishing just a bit for power point presentation)

now take the "compulsory" layout double double dismount for men. they use a different tap. the women can't effectively use this same tap because there is an obstruction called the low bar in the path of that tap. then you have the men's high bar higher than that of the girls bar. then you have the steel and diametrically smaller men's bar versus the girls fiberglass laminate rail. then you have the way each are cabled. the men's bar behaves like a slingshot. the women's bar not as much. but then you must have weight to effectively flex either bar. so then, at one time Horton did the flurry. a triple twisting double back dismount. a girl could never do this dismount on real bars on to a CLM unless you have an anatomical anamoly doing it. like 1 of the little people from the wizard of OZ. 3 feet tall and 50 lbs with the power and technique of...well...Horton! he's about that weight and height. LOL! JUST KIDDING!!!!!!!!!!!!!:)

finally, when i awoke this morning it hit me. the "Korbut" which was banned because it was dangerous. between the poster and the article and it being late last night you messed with my neural circuitry. so here goes...i remember the skill. it pre-dates the back flip from the feet on the high bar. and i'll do my best to describe it. i looked for about 20 minutes on youtube and can't readily find it. PineApple Lump is pretty astute and may find it. here goes...

1. glide kip on the low bar to catch high on the high bar. in the old days, a kip done this way was a "release" move. instead of going to support, you let go 1/2 way up and grabbed the high bar. this could be done because you could literally sit on the low bar and hold on to the high bar simultaneously. THAT'S HOW CLOSE the 2 bars were at that time.

2. after the catch on high bar the body naturally swings back and away from the high bar and then swings forward again at the low bar. when the body swings forward (this back/forth swing is referred to as an "empty" swing today) you stretch out your body over and on top of the low bar. you can't readily do this today because the bars are too far apart.

3. next comes the small "tap" when stretching over the low bar and then you bring your feet/legs in to a pike position with the feet going between the arms to a "basket" position. today it's called a "glide jamb". from this basket position you then do a "kip" to a sitting position up on the high bar. today this is called an "in bar" kip.

4. next comes the actual "Korbut". after reaching this sitting position you let go of the bar and reach upwards as you push your feet down at the floor. Olga then actually performed a "back bend" from this sitting position down to the low bar where she then performed another "kip catch high".

this back bend down to the low bar from the high bar created an enormous amount of swing. the mats in those days were woefully insufficient for these kinds of skills. consequently, some kids missed the low bar and fell to a "seat drop" on to those mats and broke their back. THIS was the skill that was banned shortly thereafter Korbut's debut of this unique skill.

thank you very much Dunno for going to bed last night bothered that...:)
 
I have always read that it was because they thought standing on the high bar is too dangerous.

Just curious if most think this is dangerous. We saw a level 7 team warm up on bars and part of their warm up "was squat on to high bar and jump off". I assumed it was to practice landing the flyaway, but I had never seen it before. All the gymnast from this gym did the exact same warm up and routine on bars and beam. They were almost like little robots but they scored very well.
 
My, but there's a lot of discussion. I'll kinda side with Geoff on this issue. I feel the sport is evolving away from an atmosphere of hard work, painful stretching, and a collection of sophisticated bio mechanical gimmicks, and is heading in a direction that favors a strict application of physics and how our athlete's bodies can be prepared and shaped to use principals that govern everyday motion. I'm not saying none of this took place in the past, rather that it has become the focus of today's norm.

I can remember when we worked sensible progressions that led to skills, which then become the major focus of our work while we introduced a new set of progressions for the next "big skill". What's different now is the concentration on teaching kids shapes for skills to the point of absolute reliability, that allow the most efficient use of speed, rotation moments, and acceleration, while minimizing wear and tear. This change in emphasis, combined with equipment modification has led to skills advancing in difficulty over the past ten or so years, and the result is seen in skills from past pipe dreams becoming reality.

I remember coaching in an environment where balance beam maxed out at a back handspring series, only to see that "bar" re-set 3 years later to a back handspring layout, and again in two years time to a bhs layout-layout. It was very much the same on the other events as new cutting edge skills replaced those formerly seen as state of the art.

It seems that was a growth spurt that slowed for about 16 years, with fewer new skills that were more the exception than the rule, until lately. So here we are today, with yesterday's skills commonplace at level 10 and the international level making more complex skills look absolutely easy, and I think it has a bit to do with the fact that they are easy if done with the correct amount of physical training, coupled with correct postures/shapes, and an abundance of speed where speed can help.

I think the best example, and there are many, is the absolute ease the top kids perform tumbling skills on floor and beam. The coaches working with these kids have long understood the value of "basics", but it seems they have only recently begun to appreciate the depth of those benefits. So what's seen now is the result of coaches realizing that it's not just about strength, flexibility, hard work, and fearless trials and error....... but an inclusion of how to use those assets as efficiently as possible, and an exclusion of gimmicks like radical shape changes during skills to enhance a gymnast's movements, as these enhancements add another variable to the motion equation.

So bottom line is the sport has been simplified to make hard skills easy. I have no idea where it will end, but can only assume based on the past, that it won't, because that's the way it's always been.

I do like dunno's idea of a wider beam, but only at the ends where it would "flare" to a 6" width for foot placement going into dismounts.
 
yes. they are working at that at gymnova and 1 other company. maybe FIG will approve THAT at some point. this kind of discussion becomes circular logic at some point though. even in the 70's with wooden balance beams we have eastern block 'black market films' of the gymnasts performing things like flip flop tuck full on beam and yurchenko 2ble fulls even before the table. well, they had something that looked like a table but it wasn't what it is today. [eta: gymnastics back then was controlled by the eastern bloc countries. we didn't even have an FIG rep until Jackie Fie. they were way ahead gymnastically and in equipment innovation.]

things like triple backs off high bar and girls bars. although the girls didn't use uneven bars but a single bar. even today their compulsories in those countries are performed on a single bar.

so as i said, at this point in time the equipment would have to change pretty significantly for more to be done. otherwise, give or take a skill here and there, the gymnastics will be iterations of other gymnastics and mostly in combination. you're just not going to see a triple back off the beam. understand? some skills are humanly possible from a human performance/biology standpoint but NOT from an equipment standpoint.:)

as an aside, back in my day (60's and early 70's) i competed trampoline also. Miller performed the 1st 2ble 2ble. then my generation came along and did triple backs on that same 1 inch bed because we were better trained. but it wasn't until we went to 1/2 inch and the 1st rendition of the Aussie/string bed that many of us performed triple triples and trifis trifis. these skills COULD NOT be performed on a 1 inch bed. at least not without killing yourself. i hope you all understand that humans can only do so much given the equipment that they have to work with. it's the way it is.

as another aside, a colleague of mine named Dale Hart (Oshkosh Gymnastics), someone a couple of years older than I yet we competed against each other in "open" competitions, was the 1st gymnast/American to perform a triple back on floor. this was before spring floors and Liukin & Gogoladze ( 1 inch spring floor 88 Seoul) and no tumble strips or rod floors or anything else. just resilite wrestling mat on top of ethafoam. he never competed it because just doing 1 was equivalent to 1 floor routine. it took everything out of him, including his joints. understand? triple backs on floor could be as common as lay 2ble 2bles from men's high bar if they went from a 4 inch spring, to let's say an 8 inch specially designed spring. or a rod floor that could be made 40X40 or an air mat placed on the boards and then the foam placed on top of that.

so then, it will never be humanly possible to perform, let's say, a quad somi on the current spring floor. they have not even been performed on a rod floor. and triple backs have been performed by maybe 8 gymnasts since 1988. they are incredibly difficult and brutally hard on the body given the current apparatus. the equipment would have to change for something like that to be performed. this can't be wished in to being or debated.:)
 
So you're basically saying that we have, indeed, already started coming close to the physical limit of skills on the current equipment, and could probably expect to see more equipment changes within the next 3-4 Olympics? You do think they will continue to change these things up to keep the sport entertaining, like they did to the vault horse/table a few Olympics ago?

I think it's interesting how this year they've made the arm swings much more strict; this should be an intriguing aspect to the elite meets, where those who were rock stars in years past may have a hard time overcoming the years of training to swing their arms, and end up with lower scores than the up-and-comers who started training the "right" way from an earlier age. But like I said, "perfection" can only be humanly perceived to a limited extent; maybe they will have to start using slow-mo replays like in the NFL to judge? LOL. I think you're right, they would modify other things before they let it get to that point of being OCD about perfection.
 
y
so then, it will never be humanly possible to perform, let's say, a quad somi on the current spring floor. they have not even been performed on a rod floor. and triple backs have been performed by maybe 8 gymnasts since 1988. they are incredibly difficult and brutally hard on the body given the current apparatus. the equipment would have to change for something like that to be performed. this can't be wished in to being or debated.:)

Had no idea the number (triple backs) was that small! Love learning about the history of the sport -- thanks.
 
.......... maybe they will have to start using slow-mo replays like in the NFL to judge? LOL. I think you're right, they would modify other things before they let it get to that point of being OCD about perfection.

Slo-mo replays!! I can see it now. The kids go into a visually "clean room" gyms and perform routines in front of three cameras lined up from different angles. The judges review the recorded routines, evaluate them, score them, and post the results a day later. Talk about tough judges!!!
 
Dunno you did trampoline? So all my t&t posts you have understood? Now I'm more curious than ever about who you are! I always thought you were an elite gym coach now I'm intrigued!

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I747 using ChalkBucket mobile app
 
So you're basically saying that we have, indeed, already started coming close to the physical limit of skills on the current equipment, and could probably expect to see more equipment changes within the next 3-4 Olympics? You do think they will continue to change these things up to keep the sport entertaining, like they did to the vault horse/table a few Olympics ago?

I think it's interesting how this year they've made the arm swings much more strict; this should be an intriguing aspect to the elite meets, where those who were rock stars in years past may have a hard time overcoming the years of training to swing their arms, and end up with lower scores than the up-and-comers who started training the "right" way from an earlier age. But like I said, "perfection" can only be humanly perceived to a limited extent; maybe they will have to start using slow-mo replays like in the NFL to judge? LOL. I think you're right, they would modify other things before they let it get to that point of being OCD about perfection.

they did not change the vault apparatus to keep the sport entertaining. they changed it because Yurchenkos were coming with a fury and they were extremely dangerous on the old horses. simple as that.:)
 
Just curious if most think this is dangerous. We saw a level 7 team warm up on bars and part of their warm up "was squat on to high bar and jump off". I assumed it was to practice landing the flyaway, but I had never seen it before. All the gymnast from this gym did the exact same warm up and routine on bars and beam. They were almost like little robots but they scored very well.

unnecessary, but not dangerous. showboating i think they call it.:)

Ask Al Fong - Dragon Gymnastics www.gagecenter.com: Hit That Handstand!

Don't really have commentary to add, just reminded me of this video. Anyway, I don't think it's dangerous assuming they're prepared for it, but that drill would prob be dangerous for your "average" level 7. For your average L10...fine.
 
Dunno you did trampoline? So all my t&t posts you have understood? Now I'm more curious than ever about who you are! I always thought you were an elite gym coach now I'm intrigued!

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I747 using ChalkBucket mobile app

yes, aerialriver. i also competed double mini and synchro and tumbling. i was on tour with Nissen in my youth and even traveled with the circus. it was what we did then. we had no Cirque. and yes, i completely understand all of your posts. would you believe me if i told you, that in 1972, i dismounted 2 3/4 somi full in barani out ball out. i was also 1 of several trampolinists who broke their necks performing back 2 3/4 somi to cody. in my case, full in cody. and lived to tell about it. in both cases, these were performed on a 1/2 inch bed. i was in heaven when the Aussie string bed came along. and now look...the London bed. if i could only be 17 again and bounce that bed.:) and i am a gymnastics coach that also knows how to coach trampoline.
 
yes, aerialriver. i also competed double mini and synchro and tumbling. i was on tour with Nissen in my youth and even traveled with the circus. it was what we did then. we had no Cirque. and yes, i completely understand all of your posts. would you believe me if i told you, that in 1972, i dismounted 2 3/4 somi full in barani out ball out. i was also 1 of several trampolinists who broke their necks performing back 2 3/4 somi to cody. in my case, full in cody. and lived to tell about it. in both cases, these were performed on a 1/2 inch bed. i was in heaven when the Aussie string bed came along. and now look...the London bed. if i could only be 17 again and bounce that bed.:) and i am a gymnastics coach that also knows how to coach trampoline.

Kind of a hijack.... given this newfound knowledge we have of you, how do you feel honestly about kids training/competing in both t & t and artistic at the same time?
 
they did not change the vault apparatus to keep the sport entertaining. they changed it because Yurchenkos were coming with a fury and they were extremely dangerous on the old horses. simple as that.:)

Sure, but to extrapolate your reasoning further, we have to remember that Yurchenkos were far more entertaining than anything that had been done in the past, so instead of banning the skill because it was dangerous, they changed the equipment to make the more entertaining skills possible. I doubt they were only thinking of safety and not about the money factor.

You did say they just outright banned moves they felt were undesirable for the sport, right? If they didn't think Yurchenkos were the "right kind of entertainment" they would have banned it, like the Korbut flip-----which wasn't about danger, but about "the right kind" of entertainment, right?
 
it's never about entertainment with FIG. in fact, everything they do is antithetical to said same. it's always about safety and the development of the sport. as i said, Yurchenkos were being performed before they became official and before the introduction of the "tongue" or table. then the Julissa Gomez accident took place in Japan at Chunichi. the new table was forced/rushed in to existence. and rightfully so.

and again, the Korbut, and she had several skills named after her, was not the back flip from the feet that was banned due to safety. this skill was banned because FIG did not want uneven bars to go the direction of the circus. the back bend from high to low was banned because of safety. i regret if i did not convey this clearly.

and vault was always entertaining. Prudonova for 1. handspring double front. Produnova 1999 University Games Double Front Vault - YouTube

Natalia Yurchenko, Amanar and Lillia Podkopayeva all did their "name" vaults on the old vault horse. it was "entertaining" but became to dangerous for "normal" kids not of the Elite biological ilk. understand??:)

and arabian 1 3/4 were "desirable" to watch but they broke backs. so again, banned because of safety.

and by the way, i luuuuuuuuvvvvvve Prudonova.:):):)
 
Kind of a hijack.... given this newfound knowledge we have of you, how do you feel honestly about kids training/competing in both t & t and artistic at the same time?

i think it's good early on. but both disciplines are now so competitive that at some point they will have to choose. :)
 
Dunno you did trampoline? So all my t&t posts you have understood? Now I'm more curious than ever about who you are! I always thought you were an elite gym coach now I'm intrigued!

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I747 using ChalkBucket mobile app


and maybe you don't remember this? i did a lot of crazy stuff in my youth. maybe Bog can find the whole post i put up from the 60's and 70's when we screwed around at beaches on 3 coasts. i only have it now on CD. but here is another that an old comrade of mine put up. i'm in there. i was 16 during/at this time. Insane Gymnastics Trampoline Rings Pool - YouTube


 

DON'T LURK... Join The Discussion!

Members see FEWER ads

College Gym News

Back