When is a parent "too involved"?

[Billy]

Do you watch the classes at school? School is more important anyway right?

When my DD is at the gym for 7 hours a day, five days a week, mostly sitting at a desk, I will definitely have to re-think watching all her practices.

 

[mtbmom]

Hi Shawn,

You can take this reply with a grain of salt if you like. I've noticed in another post you talked about paying your daughter $1.00 for each time she got a cartwheel on beam (I think). Do you think that it she is trying to please you by practicing and not quitting on a mistake? I just worry that with 12 hours a week (which is a LOT for a 6 year old) training and a mini-gym at home that she sees that what you want is a gymnast. Children will try to please their parents. As well as a plethera of other behaviors to try and get attention from their parents.

Rather than spotting her and watching her practice at home until she gets something right, perhaps some family or mommy & me time away from the gym or mini-gym would be beneficial.

Please know I am saying this in kindness. I just heed what others have said about it being a marathon not a sprint. Overtraining/overuse injuries are a very sad thing to see. And, they can happen even in the very young. Also, if your daughter doesn't ever want to end practice on a negative, perhaps you need to remind her that it takes a LONG time to attain certain skills and remind her to have fun.

I think gym mum?'s idea about cross-training is a good idea. Perhaps swimming, riding a bike, or even going to the playground would be a good alternative outlet for your daughter.

Also, I would be wary of a gym that trains Level 4 (esp. a 6 year old level 4) 12 hours a week. Is there any evidence that shows that 12 hours of practice at this level is more beneficial than 9 hours a week? We have a local gym that trains their Level 4's 14 hours/week. Not one kid made it to L4 states. The two other gyms in the area train 9 hours a week and both had L4 state champions.

I just truly believe that over-training is dangerous and as a nurse I see what injuries do to a person long term. Please be very careful with your daughter. We have both seen posts on the parents forum regarding children being injured and not getting the medical help needed until the injury was permanent. That is a shame and a reminder that even coaches with the best intentions are coaches. As parents we are the only advocates for our children. We all need to remember this and not get distracted by the goal. The goal should be to have fun! We often can get caught up in how far our child may go. I try (not always successfully) to stay in the now and remember, fun is the most important thing, esp. at 6 years old.

Hope you haven't taken offense to my post, but I gave an honest, well intentioned reply.

 

[flippymonkeysmom]

I think one of the most sickening examples of an over involved mother was last year at the optional state meet. We were there to watch and cheer on my dd's level 9 teammates. There was a gymnast there from a very competitive gym. During the season she won just about everything. Her first event at states was vault and she did beautifully - but then came out to the waiting area to tell her mother she felt really sick and dizzy and didn't think she could finish the meet. The mother went ballistic on her. In front of everyone she started screaming at her that she was going to finish the meet. The girl was hysterical crying saying she was afraid to get hurt because she was so dizzy. The mother kept saying - you will finish this meet and qualify for regionals - this is what we have been working so hard for. Finally the a coach came out and said that it wouldn't be safe for her to compete feeling that way. The mother refused to even look at her daughter. Surprise, surprise - the girl isn't doing gymnastics anymore. I was so angry - first of all it is the girl who has been working hard - not the mother. And I couldn't believe she would actually risk her daughters safety. Sickening.

Oh - and when I was growing up we called it stage mothers too.

 

[mtbmom]

During the season she won just about everything. Her first event at states was vault and she did beautifully - but then came out to the waiting area to tell her mother she felt really sick and dizzy and didn't think she could finish the meet. The mother went ballistic on her. In front of everyone she started screaming at her that she was going to finish the meet. The girl was hysterical crying saying she was afraid to get hurt because she was so dizzy. The mother kept saying - you will finish this meet and qualify for regionals - this is what we have been working so hard for.

WOW!!! :jaw-dropping: That poor kid! She can leave gymnastics, but she'll need serious therapy to deal with having that woman for a mother.

 

[Billy]

That whole "we" thing drives me crazy. "We" didn't just get a cartwheel on the beam. I couldn't do that to save my life! My DAUGHTER did it. Who is this "we" anyway?

 

[gymjourneymom]

Like I said earlier, going to meets, watching practice, encouraging your kid's hard work, this is all stuff that parents can do, and should do. As far as the gymnasts' training is concerned, that's the parents job; to provide support and encouragement, and I can't imagine how there could be such a thing as too much of that.

"Too involved" is when the parents start stepping into the coaches' territory. Coaching their kids, bribing their kids, yelling at their kids when they don't do well.

This is the type of response I expect to get if/when I try to discuss my situtation with the club owner. So far he has let this woman do what ever she wants...she has the run of the place. My dd has been at this gym for 6 yrs, has been a state champ twice, has always been happy & has many friends on all levels. This is the 1st time my dd has told me another parent has made her feel "uncomfortable". My dd has even considered leaving the gym b/c of this woman(not necessarily her dd). It would be all well & good if she stayed to watch her dd....but she watches my dd too....intensly...bordering on scary. And I don't think the owner is going to do anything about it...even if I discuss it with him. B/c our dds are the same age & level & she seems the have the owner's "ear" ...I'm afraid anything I say will be seen as "sour grapes". Thanks Shawn for this thread & thanks to the CB for this forum. So far the only person I've been able to discuss my situation with, is another mother who moved her child as soon as she heard this woman was coming to our gym...she had already left on gym b/c of her & knew what she was like. I was really good friends with that mom, but even I thought she was over reacting..."this woman can't be that bad"....I thought!!! But now I find she will stop at nothing in order for her dd to win...right now my dd is in her way. This is not the team we once had Since my dd is the one she sees as her dd's main competition...my dd & I are the only ones who are really affected by her behavior. Can't decide if it's even worth "discussing" it with the owner. We may just leave...but hate to think we let this woman drive us away from a place my dd WAS happy & thriving. She really doesn't want to leave her friends & coaches....just this woman!!!!

 

[Billy]

Hi Shawn,

You can take this reply with a grain of salt if you like. I've noticed in another post you talked about paying your daughter $1.00 for each time she got a cartwheel on beam (I think). Do you think that it she is trying to please you by practicing and not quitting on a mistake? I just worry that with 12 hours a week (which is a LOT for a 6 year old) training and a mini-gym at home that she sees that what you want is a gymnast. Children will try to please their parents. As well as a plethera of other behaviors to try and get attention from their parents.

Rather than spotting her and watching her practice at home until she gets something right, perhaps some family or mommy & me time away from the gym or mini-gym would be beneficial.

Please know I am saying this in kindness. I just heed what others have said about it being a marathon not a sprint. Overtraining/overuse injuries are a very sad thing to see. And, they can happen even in the very young. Also, if your daughter doesn't ever want to end practice on a negative, perhaps you need to remind her that it takes a LONG time to attain certain skills and remind her to have fun.

I think gym mum?'s idea about cross-training is a good idea. Perhaps swimming, riding a bike, or even going to the playground would be a good alternative outlet for your daughter.

Also, I would be wary of a gym that trains Level 4 (esp. a 6 year old level 4) 12 hours a week. Is there any evidence that shows that 12 hours of practice at this level is more beneficial than 9 hours a week? We have a local gym that trains their Level 4's 14 hours/week. Not one kid made it to L4 states. The two other gyms in the area train 9 hours a week and both had L4 state champions.

I just truly believe that over-training is dangerous and as a nurse I see what injuries do to a person long term. Please be very careful with your daughter. We have both seen posts on the parents forum regarding children being injured and not getting the medical help needed until the injury was permanent. That is a shame and a reminder that even coaches with the best intentions are coaches. As parents we are the only advocates for our children. We all need to remember this and not get distracted by the goal. The goal should be to have fun! We often can get caught up in how far our child may go. I try (not always successfully) to stay in the now and remember, fun is the most important thing, esp. at 6 years old.

Hope you haven't taken offense to my post, but I gave an honest, well intentioned reply.

I appreciate your comments and I absolutely did not take any offense. I completely understand what you're saying. But, I do take care to let my DD know that I love her and I am proud of her for many reasons, not just gymnastics. And with her gymnastics, I tell her I'm proud of how well she works and how hard she tries, not for what she can do.

The increased hours (it's actually 11 per week- I made a mistake) just started last week. When she was making us go broke with the cartwheels, she was only a practice 5 hours a week. She does still practice some at home but she's usually outside riding her bike or on the swingset or tampoline, or she's at the kitchen counter with her markers and art supplies. She will be taking swimming lessons this summer (she needs to finish learning to swim whether she wants to or not; safety, you know). We also do frequent "girls days" where she and I go out to lunch or shopping or something. And her favorite thing to do is to cuddle up with me before bedtime and watch "House Hunters" on HGTV (go figure). Trust me, our relationship, and her life, is not all about the gym. I'm very careful about that.

As for doing gymnastics for me, I am absolutely sure that pleasing me is not the case. She wanted to do gym, she has been begging to be on the team since she was 4 years old, and she would live at the gym if we'd let her. When she was 5, she watched a girl do a cool tumbling pass on the floor. DD turned to me, very seriously, and said, "Mom, I have to come every day." She is very driven and determined. She does not like anything (gymnastics, school, learning to ride a bike, etc) get the best of her. She excels because she wants to. We just support her and make sure she's safe and happy. The minute she's not happy anymore, we stop.

Btw, every girl on the L4 team made it to state this past season and the team placed 5th in the state out of 28 teams. Several of the girls also placed individually. Also, my DD is the only 6 yr old at this level. The next youngest girl on her team is 8.

 

[Billy]

This is the type of response I expect to get if/when I try to discuss my situtation with the club owner. So far he has let this woman do what ever she wants...she has the run of the place. My dd has been at this gym for 6 yrs, has been a state champ twice, has always been happy & has many friends on all levels. This is the 1st time my dd has told me another parent has made her feel "uncomfortable". My dd has even considered leaving the gym b/c of this woman(not necessarily her dd). It would be all well & good if she stayed to watch her dd....but she watches my dd too....intensly...bordering on scary. And I don't think the owner is going to do anything about it...even if I discuss it with him. B/c our dds are the same age & level & she seems the have the owner's "ear" ...I'm afraid anything I say will be seen as "sour grapes". Thanks Shawn for this thread & thanks to the CB for this forum. So far the only person I've been able to discuss my situation with, is another mother who moved her child as soon as she heard this woman was coming to our gym...she had already left on gym b/c of her & knew what she was like. I was really good friends with that mom, but even I thought she was over reacting..."this woman can't be that bad"....I thought!!! But now I find she will stop at nothing in order for her dd to win...right now my dd is in her way. This is not the team we once had Since my dd is the one she sees as her dd's main competition...my dd & I are the only ones who are really affected by her behavior. Can't decide if it's even worth "discussing" it with the owner. We may just leave...but hate to think we let this woman drive us away from a place my dd WAS happy & thriving. She really doesn't want to leave her friends & coaches....just this woman!!!!

Does this woman say stuff directly to your DD? If she does, you definitely should complain to the coach. The coach shouldn't want anyone criticizing his athletes. Another thought might be to say something, calmly, to the other mother. I'm not sure I'd have the nerve to do that but you might. You could also talk with your daughter and explain to her about jealousy and how some people just behave badly. Your DD will need to learn how to handle those kinds of people anyway. If she's otherwise safe and happy at the gym, maybe now is the time to learn how to deal with that.

There were a couple of parents, and girls, too, who complained when my DD got skipped to L4, rather than L3 with the rest of her team. They didn't think it was fair. They thought all the girls should move up as a team. As a result, some of the girls were pretty rude to DD the last few practices with her old team. I had to explain to her why and how to handle it. Needless to say, she is quite happy at L4 and doesn't have problems with any of the older girls. I don't know if this would help your DD or not since she can't "get away" from the other girl.

 

[MdGymMom01]

BUT when it comes to my child she will not say anything, unless it is negative. Does it bother me, yeah it does, but I don't say anything - I just figure that there must be some kind of jealously there on her behalf. My kid works hard and I think she is a beautiful gymnast, she continues to improve - that's the important thing, plus my dd has no idea she is like this.

I have to admit that I really enjoy the workouts when she is not there, it's quiet and peaceful. I would consider just putting on my ipod and ignoring all that goes on up there, but I do enjoy talking to the other moms.

I can totally relate to this. There were maybe a few parents like this at my dd's old cheer gym. They would praise all the other flyers except my daughter, but they would definitley make it known aloud if my dd fell or had a bent leg or something. It totally boiled down to jealousy. I don't inderstand why people can't just appreciate everyone and give praise and credit when and where it is due. Is it so hard to be genuinely happy or proud for someone???
I totally believe in karma and what goes around comes around, so these people usually get theirs eventually.

 

[Blackie6]

Everyone will have a different answer to who the over involved parents are. I think over involved could be positive or negative. We have some parents that are over involved in the fact that they send a lot of time in the gym or doing gym (meet, parent organization, ect...) related activities. They have lots more time than I do and I think it's great they are able to use their time for the better of the gym in a positive way.

Then there are the over involved parents that affect the gym in a negative manner. Those are the ones that scare me! I've only experienced one year of meets and about 4 years of being in the gym (rec, pre-team, team) and the over involved moms sit together at all practices and meets bragging about their daughters and only cheering their selected group of girls. After meets they brag about how well their DD scored but offer no congratulations to your DD on their awards. And, on those bad days when their DD doesn't do well at a meet...it's the coaches fault that they didn't spend MORE time with their DD. If your DD is the youngest, the worst, the least talented, they don't have the time of day for you unless no one else from their group is there at practice for the moment. Once another OI (over involved) mom comes from their social group/level, they immediately terminate whatever small talk they were having with you to run over to the other mom. During practice they have hand signals for their DD's who have to constantly look over for signs of approval, dissapproval when they do any skill. After practice they run right over to the coach for a private talk on how their DD did at that practice. When you walk into the gym, they can be found grilling the owner and office staff as well. When working meets they will only work with a buddy from their new level. And now that they moved up to L5 (thank God!) they negotiate & argue to get the best practice times/summer hours for their DD's and then brag to you that your hours changed because of them, LOL Oh, and they are now upset that Your DD will move up to L5 too next year and that they will have to compete with them all over again because their DD's are so much better. They all have home gyms, make their DD's watch youtube routines to embed them into their DD's brains, and they have to have a gazillion privates for extra help to get even better then they already are. Funny thing is that most of the girls get along great (I love the girls!) when they see each other, so the OI is only amongst the moms! YEAH!

Hows that for a description? I love the L4 group of moms I'm with now & can't wait to go to comps w/them. While I sit in the gym sometimes when practice starts, I only hang out to talk to a few moms and often don't even see what my own DD is doing. I try not to bother the coach, I am sure she will approach me if/when there is a problem, and my DD only practices handstand and splits at home when she wants, I don't ask her, make her or talk about gym when we leave the gym. We don't stress at meets, do your best is good enough, and whenever she goes to practice I say "have fun". At the point is is no longer fun, we will quit. She's only 7 and IMHO slow and steady wins the race we are not Olympic bound. My friends have strict instructions if I ever do turn into one of those wacked out OI moms I should be banned from the gym forever, LOL

 

[GymnastRaeRae87]

I do not find that true. My Mom and Dad come to almost every gym practice I have, and if one can't come the other does (if they have a meeting or aren't feeling good) I think there is a difference between parents that go to every practice and watch and encourage their children and the parents that go to every practice and act like one of those parents on those shows "Show bizz Mom/Dad". I think there is a big difference between being encouraging and over the top. But I love having my parents come to every practice and mock meet, it makes me feel like they like wathcing me improve

 

[Kayleigh]

Crazy gym mommies... we have a few of them at our gym...

Story time!

Story #1 - One girl at my gym was a level 5 with us two years ago, and probably should've stayed that way. She would have if the coaches had their way. But no, her mother comes in and starts screaming at the coach about how she's paying the money, how her daughter's the best on the team, etc. Well, she got her wish. They moved the girl to level 6, and she had a BAD season. Same thing happened with moving to 7 this past year...


Story #2 - (this one makes me want to cry!) - We learned about this one because my mom works the front desk, and this particular mom actually TOLD her this! Said mother set up a gym in the basement, and has her two daughters stick a certain amount of skills before they can EAT. I can't believe they're still around... especially considering how obnoxious the mother really is. One of her daughters got a 7.1 on bars and she was screaming her bloody head off she was so pleased (7.1 was a good score for her). She also has admitted to taking on extra cases at work to pay for privat lessons that aren't even needed (they're still doing them, and it's summer... no meets. WHY?!?) They'll be gone before too long, I'm sure. I hope.

Story #3 - A combination of 1 and 2. This family is richer than God, and their attitudes match. They also do private lessons like crazy and mommy has thrown a fit over level placement many times. This mom also decided it would be a good idea to walk into a warmup gym during competition to give her daughters "snacks" (I'm convinced she was silent coaching them ). Needless to say, my coach went ballistic.


With any luck, all three families will be gone soon... they're not making a good name for us. And it's just not right. Isn't the whole point of this sport to support your kid whatever they do? Have them learn life lessons that will carry over into real-life? I know that's what I'm getting out of it, and I can tell you I'll be better off than them. They're learning that it's impossible to please, hard work doesn't matter, and that nothing is ever good enough. Or, like in my first story, that if you yell and scream you'll get what you want. It's just so... wrong.

This sport is better than that.

 

[iluvgym]

I do not find that true. My Mom and Dad come to almost every gym practice I have, and if one can't come the other does (if they have a meeting or aren't feeling good) I think there is a difference between parents that go to every practice and watch and encourage their children and the parents that go to every practice and act like one of those parents on those shows "Show bizz Mom/Dad". I think there is a big difference between being encouraging and over the top. But I love having my parents come to every practice and mock meet, it makes me feel like they like wathcing me improve

To each his own, but I think if your parents watched practice occasionally instead of every one of them, they would see more improvement. Not that you would be doing anything different, but to watch workout every day probably almost seems like a monotonous repetition of alot of the same stuff. But imagine if they hadn't watched in a few weeks, then saw a workout and would get excited over the "wow I didn't know you could do that!" and "wow you learned alot of new stuff since last time I saw you practice".

 

[GymnastRaeRae87]

To each his own, but I think if your parents watched practice occasionally instead of every one of them, they would see more improvement. Not that you would be doing anything different, but to watch workout every day probably almost seems like a monotonous repetition of alot of the same stuff. But imagine if they hadn't watched in a few weeks, then saw a workout and would get excited over the "wow I didn't know you could do that!" and "wow you learned alot of new stuff since last time I saw you practice".

Actually my parents like to watch all of them because they like to see how much I am changing because I am getting a lot of tumbling back still since I broke my feet, and I am making up my optional routines so like coming, but I agree to each his own like you said.

 

[Blackie6]

I love the "wow" experience! I caught the tail end of practice last night and my DD held a handstand for 19 seconds! I had no idea she could hold one that long! My DD is in the gym 10.5 hours a week. I love her, love watching when I can, but no way can I sit that long. I did it for pre-team only because she was 4/5 yrs old and you know how they still need mommy around for a quick hug. If she has something special to show me she does it afterwards or asks me to stay.

 

[GymnastRaeRae87]

I love the "wow" experience! I caught the tail end of practice last night and my DD held a handstand for 19 seconds! I had no idea she could hold one that long! My DD is in the gym 10.5 hours a week. I love her, love watching when I can, but no way can I sit that long. I did it for pre-team only because she was 4/5 yrs old and you know how they still need mommy around for a quick hug. If she has something special to show me she does it afterwards or asks me to stay.

tell your DD congrats! That is an awesome handstand hold!!!!

 

[Panda-girl's Mom]

At our gym we are not allowed to watch team practices and after reading this thread I can see why. I can usually see the tail end of practice when I pick my daughter up. First this seemed silly but after hearing about all the over involved parents in this thread it makes sense. Our gym owner has been in the business for a long time and maybe this is the reason she does not want parents watching. I can see how when your daughter is young and practicing many hours and it is costing you alot of money that you might get very involved in the sport. I am probally quilty of this to some degree I do attend every meet and I will speak to the coaches or owner if I am unhappy about something. Luckily I have found other parents in my daughters group and team to be very supportive of one another and cheer for all the girls on the team. Sometimes unfortunately we will make comments about other teams but these comments are both postive and negative. I love to utilize the time my daughter is in the gym to get other things done so I like not having to stay.

 

[MdGymMom01]

At my dd's gym we are not allowed (or not advised to stay) and watch team practices. The coaches have been in the business for many many years as well so I think the past experiences like in this thread of the drama and cattiness are reduced if the parents don't stay and watch. The teams usually practice way in the back of the gym anyway so you can't really see what they are doing if you wanted to watch. The recreational classes are held closer to the viewing area so these parents usually stay to watch these 1 hr classes.

I love the WOW reaction too, Just the other day my dd was down in the family room watching TV and playing around and she did a press handstand by herself! It wasn't from a sitting position or anything--just from a standing position with her hands on the floor, but she got the "press and the balance shift" motion down and she has only been on pre-team for a month! I was amazed! She has always been athletic with her cheerleading experience but to see a new gymnastics move was really exciting!

I think when you stay and watch practices--ANY sports practices for that matter--you can get too wrapped up in it and become catty and too involved. I used to stay and watch the cheer practices every time and some of the parents got crazy! But the owners had to close the practices the weeks before the big competitions because the parents would get so stressed out and negative and catty it was almost like a "punishment" for these parents not to be able to watch. But from my experience, not being able to watch was kind of like a relief because you didn't hear all the other parents making comments about the kids and you didn't see the stunt groups falls or tumbling issues or whatever. A lot happens in a 3 hour practice and it never totally goes smoothly where every stunt group hits and the routines are run through without a hitch. Something is bound to happen. And not seeing it makes the stress go down.

I think a nice balance between being supportive and involved is key.

 

[Ingymmom]

A catty parent is a catty parent, and watching all of the time or not does not change it. The majority of our catty parents are the ones that come in for a few minutes or once a week. These are the ones commenting - how come shes over there and my dd is not? My daughter is not working on this on that that skill and she gets to? She can't do that yet, she is not good enough! Catty does not mean the parent is over-involved. This is an issue with insecurity.

Our gym allows staying/watching for practice. Our coaches don't care if parents stay or not - either way is fine with them. I would be leary of a program that does not allow viewing. Actually, I would avoid a program that did not allow me to come in whenever I choose.

As for the comment about comparing gym to school... I know many parents that volunteer so they can monitor their children in school, they work in the classrooms, the office, answer phones, etc. Too many parents spend hours with their children AFTER school practicing homework. I know parents that correct, and even complete homework or projects for children, ensuring they get the best grades. Many parents are very involved, even overly involved in school.

 

[kristilyn73]

When my DD was little I was at every practice... Of course she was 5 and I was there for all the reasons already listed. I am wanted to make sure she was safe. I am a bit over protective.

But then quickly she moved on to Pre Team, Level 4 and then finally compulsary gymnastics. Staying for 4 hours a night just wasnt feasible.

Now she is in Optional World. She practices 4 days a week, it is not possible for me to watch all of her practices..

Mondays, I coach. Obviously, I cannot coach and watch DD at the same time. That would make some other parents real angry!

Tuesdays & Thursdays, DD does Day Practice. She leaves school for the last 2 periods and goes to gymnastics. I work full time so I cannot stay and watch

Fridays I will watch for a while for a couple of reasons, one - Only Optionals practice on Fridays. Things seem less hectic. Also because I can have a little Alone time, I can choose to sit in a corner or I can talk to other mom's. I work, Have 3 kids, my other DD is a Competitve dancer. It is all I can do to have just a little bit of quiet time at the end of the week!!!

So, I dont think I am too involved when it comes to watching practice. I am at EVERY Meet!!! Every one... this actually became an arguement between my husband and I this year. Our meets are 2 1/2 hours away. For most meets I will just take DD. Occasionally we will get a sitter and DH will come with us, and twice we took the whole family. That is a pain in the behind!

DH wanted to take DD to a meet this past year. It about killed me... I couldnt do it.. is that bad? I told him, I just cannot imagine NOT being there. What if she gets her highest score? What if she makes State? What if she places first? and I am not there to experience it with her? Will she always remember 'the one meet I took 1st on Beam and my Mom wasnt there'?

I know it is important for her to have her Dad there.. I just want to be there too...

Is that Too Involved?

Then question is when can a parent become too involved....

I worry that I am some times. Not, too involved, but if gymnastics is too involved in my DD's Life... And if Gymnastics is all my DD has in life, what have I done to prevent that...