WAG Where are the parents?

[gymgal]

USA Football: Link Removed

These are not the stats we are talking about. The stats listed above are for a specific program they have developed. I love they have developed it and it certainly seems to be working well in reducing head injuries but again, this doesn't show the rate of all types of injuries across the whole sport. It is just focusing on one, based on a program. Essentially, the research was done to promote the program. That would be similar to a company having research done on a piece of equipment to show there are less injuries when using that particular piece of equipment.

 

[Randomactsofcheer]

That's great. It does show that this program works, but does not indicate # of instances or types of injuries incurred, and the percentage is XX% of what? So while it may be down 63%, what are they down from?

There is a small annotation for the study under the one sheet promo. I am sure you can find the full statistics on the actual study. If you scroll down further, there are other case studies that were performed by USA Football.

I can’t attest to the accuracy of the studies, I merely posted the link to show that there are amateur sports programs that collect injury data and pay for case studies. USA Football started doing this (and implemented Heads Up) as a direct response to the declining participation in youth tackle football after studies came out that showed how detrimental injuries from tackle football can be on developing brains.

The jury is still out on whether or not Heads Up has actually lowered the injury rate. But it’s a step in the right direction. My hope is that USAG will finally take a whole body, whole mind approach to athlete welfare.

 

[gymgal]

Why am I not surprised that USAG will probably have to be dragged kicking and screaming instead of leading the effort.... sigh

probably because the majority of its membership (including parents) don't see the point in it...

I merely posted the link to show that there are amateur sports programs that collect injury data and pay for case studies. USA Football started doing this (and implemented Heads Up) as a direct response to the declining participation in youth tackle football after studies came out that showed how detrimental injuries from tackle football can be on developing brains.

Well, tackle football is detrimental to any brain, not just developing ones. Personally think it should be banned. But I don't see that in my lifetime. Family friend whose son is in high school and has had 4 concussions between football and rugby and still playing...

 

[Randomactsofcheer]

These are not the stats we are talking about. The stats listed above are for a specific program they have developed. I love they have developed it and it certainly seems to be working well in reducing head injuries but again, this doesn't show the rate of all types of injuries across the whole sport. It is just focusing on one, based on a program. Essentially, the research was done to promote the program. That would be similar to a company having research done on a piece of equipment to show there are less injuries when using that particular piece of equipment.

The Heads Up program addresses all injuries, not just head injuries. The statistics show concussion and overall injury rates. It is common for companies and nonprofits to commission studies to show the effectiveness of their programs. This one says it is peer-reviewed and published.

Again, I cannot attest to the accuracy of this particular study. I posted the link in response to someone who said that no amateur sports organizations have access to these kinds of injury statistics. There are amateur sports organizations that have access to this kind of data and statistics. It IS possible for organizations to get this kind of data and statistics. But the want has to be there.

 

[CoachAlex]

First of all, injuries that occur as a mechanism of the sport are not abuse. Yes, gymnastics is a dangerous sport and even a gym with the best coaches who are loving and very safe will have injuries.

Abuse is a coach causing the injury, or a coach knowing that an athlete is injured and forcing them to continue practicing, competing, etc.

As for the original question about where are the parents - a) abusers are very good at hiding the abuse, and grooming not only the “victim” but also the adults in the victims family; b) the culture in gymnastics of “what happens in the gym stays in the gym” or parents not being allowed, etc, is so ingrained in the sport that no one questions it.

Are there cases where parents knew about abuses and ignored them, yep. Are there cases where the parents didn’t believe their kid, yep. Are there cases where the parents really had no idea, or thought that was “just the way it is in gymnastics (or whatever sport), yep.

I think this is one of those situations, where unless you are the parent of a child who was being abused by a coach, etc, you don’t really know what you would have done.

 

[skschlag]

The Heads Up program addresses all injuries, not just head injuries. The statistics show concussion and overall injury rates. It is common for companies and nonprofits to commission studies to show the effectiveness of their programs. This one says it is peer-reviewed and published.

Again, I cannot attest to the accuracy of this particular study. I posted the link in response to someone who said that no amateur sports organizations have access to these kinds of injury statistics. There are amateur sports organizations that have access to this kind of data and statistics. It IS possible for organizations to get this kind of data and statistics. But the want has to be there.

And we are assuming USAG does not want this. I am not saying any of this is a bad idea. But I think that making an assumption that USAG does not want this is wrong. That football program is great, but we do not know that it deals with all injuries. Concussions and "other". I have friends whose sons have been in this program. One did pop warner and gymnastics and had far more football injuries. I do not consider this data, just an interesting anecdote.

My problem with this thread is not that I do not want the info, or that the majority of parents do not want this, but it is the assumption that this is the case. Unless you are with USAG then you have no idea. And right now, as stated before they have bigger fish to fry.

Maybe because my son is at a gym where they do care, I am a lot less cynical about this stuff. HEck, they wrote an incident report about my son's shoulder that he hurt in my car picking up my lunchbox on the off chance that fatigue from practice contributed. So gyms do care, and our coach said he was following USAG rules.

 

[Midwestmommy]

I stopped in to say hi to a friend at a small gym in our area tonight whose daughter had practice tonight. They are leaving after their contract is up. The coaches are verbally abusive and this gym has the reputation for lots of injuries. Sure enough, it was the land of the walking wounded. Frankly, if the parents and USAG “don’t see the point of” understanding injury rates or implementing best practices, then they might need to be forced.

Little girls aren’t allowed to have jobs, but they are allowed to have 20 hours a week of grueling workouts at gyms who don’t keep track of injury rates, and don’t see the point of making sure they are doing everything possible to protect bodies of kids who are too young to consent to anything. They are more than a decade away from mature cognitive development.

I’m being a bit of a devils advocate here, but if coaches and gyms and parents and USAG don’t see the point and are indifferent, then maybe we need some laws to protect kids. Of course parents and kids and gyms would be best positioned to self monitor, but as this post has shoen, there a culture of indifference, it’s deeply engrained in this sport. And I know, I know there are amazing gyms who do great—but what about the ones who don’t?

I say turn over that rock even if the critters bite.

 

[Flippin'A]

I think the value in somehow quantifying or monitoring injuries in the sport wouldn't be in determining whether gymnasts as a whole get injured more often than other child athletes. Gymnastics is a tough sport and causes injuries, sometimes acute and sometimes overuse, and that's just a fact. Where we fall on the range of sports injuries isn't all that valuable. More than hockey, less than baseball? More than tennis, less than football? Does it matter? Are we all just going to put our children in golf or archery because the injury rate is lower?

However, I think there would be tremendous value in monitoring injury statistics for individual gyms. One of the women who testified at the sentencing mentioned that there were many girls in back braces at the same time after she broke her back at Gedderts. Sure, one girl with a stress fracture in her spine happens. Maybe two at a time is a coincidence. But several at a time consistently? That's a sign that something is seriously wrong with the training philosophy. Being able to see patterns over years of gyms that have a high rate of injuries per gymnast over a long period could be really useful in giving USAG an idea of which gyms may need to be watched more closely. I don't know how you could get this information in a realistic way since the gyms would have to self report and actual medical information about specific children would have to be confidential, but if it were possible I think it could go a long way toward helping USAG find warning signs for abusive environments. This is mostly wishful thinking, but can you imagine if when looking for a gym any parent could view a statistical breakdown of the gyms they were considering and be able to cross one or two off the list because of huge numbers of overuse injuries?

 

[Tumbellina82]

Not

I am curious to know what they consider a gymnast. The stats would be more meaningful if we knew whether recreational gymnasts are also considered in the total population. If rec gymnasts are included, then I feel the statistic does not accurately portray the ER injury rate for competitive gymnastics. I’d like to see the stats for rec gymnasts, competitive gymnasts, and the population as a whole. Those statistics would be more meaningful for parents considering competitive gymnastics.

Not only does it include rec, it includes anyone who tells hospital staff on admission that they acquired their injury doing gymnastics. Around 20% of the injuries occurred in the home and are not associated with organised gymnastics at all. Then there is around 40% in school, which might mean a school based gymnastics club but could also mean gym class or a playground incidents. About 40% of the total occurred at sports or recreaction facilities which would include gymnastics gyms, but also trampoline parks. So really all you can say from those statistics is that the number of injuries from organised gymnastics is a lot lower than suggested by the study.

Interestingly the study authors also put a lot of forearm and wrist injuries down to gymnasts not being trained to fall. I know there's no sort of standardisation in the US as coaches often aren't formally qualified but I'd really hope that their belief that gymnasts are not routinely taught safe fall technique says more about their lack of knowledge in regards to gymnastics than US coaching practice.

I certainly agree that it would be valuable to have better statistics on injury so we could address risks in a more informed way but I'm far from convinced gymnastics has much higher risk than other sports. Obviously there is a potential for injury, but it is far more predictable, than, say, a game of Rugby, so there is a great deal coaches can do to mitigate risk through safety equipment, spotting, and training. Better statistics could be helpful in driving that, but it is difficult to collect statistics that are useful. For example I recall seeing a study that showed most injuries on some apparatus (can't recall which) happened when the gymnast was spotted. Does that mean spotting is ineffective or even counterproductive or just that gymnasts fall more on new skills and coaches spot them until they are confident the gymnasts are fairly safe? Common sense suggests the later and it hardly seems responsible to test the alternate hypothesis.

 

[Hollowarchkick]

Excuse me for joining the discussion late. I’d like to address what I can.
As a coach and gym owner, I want healthy kids. It doesn’t serve me to have beat down and hurt kids. There are coaches that don’t get it and coach irresponsibly; I get that. Those coaches usually work themselves out of a job; not always, but eventually their reputation precedes them. In this environment, it’s easy to forget that most coaches were gymnasts and have experienced things they wish they hadn’t. The environment has changed over time. Most of us understand the importance of smart training and care for our athletes; we’ve been there.
As an owner my responsibility is to provide the equipment necessary to safely train our kids. As a coach, my responsibility is to use that equipment in a way that helps the athlete stay safe.
Wanting statistics that aren’t there and wanting change based on statistics that don’t exist does nothing. As a parent, look for the proper equipment. Are they training on hard surfaces year round? Are they being spotted on new skills? Is the spotting up to par?
Currently I have multiple level 10s that are out with injury. We used tumble track and rod floor as progressions during the off season in preparation for this season. They didn’t do big tumbling passes on floor until November. They didn’t vault on a hard surface until December (once a week all season). We do our best to limit the impact. Bar dismounts are done on resi 75% of the time. The bottom line is that this sport requires a lot physically and injuries occur. It’s never ok and it should always be evaluated but at a certain point, if you don’t do enough repetitions you’ll have catastrophic type injuries. You’ve all seen the gym at meets that is terrifying. I’m never ok with an injury of any kind but an overuse injury comes from a kid being able to train long enough to have that. Sounds bad but that’s a fact. We do the best we can to prevent that but that can happen. The sport has two events... not four. There is tumbling (legs, knees, ankles, feet) and swinging (rips). What are most injuries for girls? On the men’s side, they have more variety in their events. In general, there are fewer overuse injuries at a younger age because they don’t use the same joints as much. As they age, they have similar issues. I’m guessing this is true for most sports.
When it comes to the verbal abuse... my coach (Mazeika) told me when I worked for him when I was young that if I’m frustrated, it’s because I’m frustrated that I’m not able to explain it well enough. I have found that to be true... good coaches are usually able to avoid the yelling because they know how to get results with proper coaching. I try to remember that when I’m getting upset. It’s probably on me. It’s then my job to go find a better way. That doesn’t mean I don’t do it. I’m human and I’m pretty sure most parents who love their children have lost their temper. It’s not ok but it happens.
I also can’t say I haven’t gotten loud to make a point. The skills can be dangerous and if I get scared, I tend to react poorly. I’ve also done it to snap a group out of a lull. I know full well what I’m doing and there is no personal attack. It is in a situation where there is limited time (warm ups at a meet) to get their heads straight. Again... that’s for their well being. I wish I had a better way but I have their best interest at heart. I’m not perfect but I’ve been on the other side.
Try to understand that parents, coaches and owners should be on the same side. We all want the same thing. There aren’t many coaches that just don’t care. Most of the people in this industry care and want the best for their kids.

 

[Hollowarchkick]

And just to clarify before it comes up... Mazeika never once said anything to me as an athlete that was abusive or out of line. He taught me good gymnastics and many many life lessons I do my best to carry on. Good, good man and good for the sport.

 

[Randomactsofcheer]

I think the value in somehow quantifying or monitoring injuries in the sport wouldn't be in determining whether gymnasts as a whole get injured more often than other child athletes. Gymnastics is a tough sport and causes injuries, sometimes acute and sometimes overuse, and that's just a fact. Where we fall on the range of sports injuries isn't all that valuable. More than hockey, less than baseball? More than tennis, less than football? Does it matter? Are we all just going to put our children in golf or archery because the injury rate is lower?

However, I think there would be tremendous value in monitoring injury statistics for individual gyms. One of the women who testified at the sentencing mentioned that there were many girls in back braces at the same time after she broke her back at Gedderts. Sure, one girl with a stress fracture in her spine happens. Maybe two at a time is a coincidence. But several at a time consistently? That's a sign that something is seriously wrong with the training philosophy. Being able to see patterns over years of gyms that have a high rate of injuries per gymnast over a long period could be really useful in giving USAG an idea of which gyms may need to be watched more closely. I don't know how you could get this information in a realistic way since the gyms would have to self report and actual medical information about specific children would have to be confidential, but if it were possible I think it could go a long way toward helping USAG find warning signs for abusive environments. This is mostly wishful thinking, but can you imagine if when looking for a gym any parent could view a statistical breakdown of the gyms they were considering and be able to cross one or two off the list because of huge numbers of overuse injuries?

I also think that injury rate statistics of gymnastics isn’t as valuable when comparing to other sports. Although, I do believe a small population of people may change their minds about allowing their children to participate if they know the risk. When my daughter started rec gymnastics, I couldn’t picture how kids could get seriously injured. Everything looked so safe with all the padding and foam mats (I was oh so naive).

But I completely agree with you that gym injury statistics would allow parents to make more informed decisions when choosing a gym. The only reason I posted the USA Football link was to show that it is possible for an amateur sports organization to collect these statistics. Do I think some dishonest gym owners will fudge their injury numbers? Absolutely! But I think that tracking injury rates can help alert gym owners (and parents) to a potential problem. I am sure there are some gym owners and coaches that already do this!

 

[sce]

Yes I would know. There are body changes in kids. Personality changes. There are other parents and other kids. I might not hear every word. But there are signs and cues. There is a tone as to how practices goes, how injuries are handled, how parents are “handled”

I respect my “ick” factor. I would know.

And I operate from the assumption my kid will absolutely not tell me everything or anything.

This seems pretty prideful. Yes, we should all be watchful and teach our kids what is not okay for others to do to them. We might even prevent something from happening, but we can't see it all or stop it all.

 

[gymjunkie]

To the OP, part of the problem is some parents actually want abusive coaching. They think it will make their kid a champion and they want that more than they want a healthy child. This empowers coaches who are abusive.

Example: I once inherited a fear-filled L7. although I barely had a chance to work with her daughter, her progress with me was not "fast enough" for her mom. At parent conference #1, I suggested her daughter work with a local sports psychologist who had successfully worked with our team. Her answer was, "if gymnastics is a sport where you need a psychologist, we'll find another sport." At parent conference #2 (2 months later) I went over everything we had tried in the gym to get her daughter over her fear and the small progress her daughter had been making in the past 2 months. It wasn't enough for mom, so I asked what exactly she was asking me to do. She leaned into me and said, "I want you to scream at her until she does what you ask her to do." I told her I was not that kind of a coach, because my goal is to create internal motivation -- not to motivate through fear. I told her that method would only work long-term if I kept getting scarier and scarier as time goes on. I then told her a few horror stories about a gym 20 minutes away who was very big on screaming, shaming and belittling. She packed up her daughter's locker and joined that gym the very next Monday. She also recruited 2 other GCMs to follow along so that their kids could be screamed at. Her daughter repeated L7 (did okay), went onto L8 (not as successful as L7), tried to compete L9, but scratched the entire season due to mental blocks. The next time I ran into the mom, ironically it was in the waiting room of the sports psychologist I had previously recommended (she was conducting a weekend workshop for local gymnasts). The kid was miserable and finally quit a few months later. The other 2 who followed also quit by age 12 due to burnout.

Another example: I overheard 2 parents from another team (the screaming, shaming and belittling team) discussing their daughter's fears. Mom #1 states that she feels so bad for her daughter because she has been going through so many fears. Mom#2 starts preaching to her that she needs to tell her daughter the same thing she tells her own, "You are not allowed to fear a new skill. Your coaches wouldn't have asked you to do the skill if they didn't know you were ready. If I hear about you balking over a skill you are told to do, I'll consider that being disrespectful to your coach and you will be grounded."

Another factor is most of us coaches are former gymnasts. Many of us had abusive coaches. A few decades ago, most gyms had no windows in their lobbies and team travel consisted of parents dropping us off at the team van which was driven by our coach to the travel meet. When you've come from an abusive environment you react one of 3 ways: get out of the sport and stay out (do not allow your own kids anywhere near it); stay in the sport and make up for your own abuse by nurturing the kids you coach; or becoming an abusive coach. Since there are enough parents who approve of abusive coaches and enough coaches who choose abusive methods, you have a match made in hell for the unfortunate kids in their care.

 

[Deleted member 18037]

This seems pretty prideful. Yes, we should all be watchful and teach our kids what is not okay for others to do to them. We might even prevent something from happening, but we can't see it all or stop it all.

I didn’t say I would see it all or am able to prevent it all.

But if my kid is going somewhere for many hours a week. With the same group of folks. I would watch. I would know. I would find out.

https://www.yahoo.com/lifestyle/kids-good-keeping-abuse-secret-200745523.html

Quick story. Went on adventure with daughter, friend. MIL went too. I asked kids how they were liking the day. They were not liking it so much.
MIL jumped down their throats. They should smile, be grateful. I jumped down MIL. We’re raising strong assertive girls. They know when I ask them something it’s OK to be truthful.

I might not know every incident at school or on the bus, or on a playground. But I would know something was up if it was ongoing.

And a guy like Nassar. Oh double hockey pucks no. There is no gymnastic injuries that requires internal pelvic manipulation. And Geddert we would of been out of there.

 

[Deleted member 18037]

Another factor is most of us coaches are former gymnasts. Many of us had abusive coaches. A few decades ago, most gyms had no windows in their lobbies and team travel consisted of parents dropping us off at the team van which was driven by our coach to the travel meet. When you've come from an abusive environment you react one of 3 ways: get out of the sport and stay out (do not allow your own kids anywhere near it); stay in the sport and make up for your own abuse by nurturing the kids you coach; or becoming an abusive coach. Since there are enough parents who approve of abusive coaches and enough coaches who choose abusive methods, you have a match made in hell for the unfortunate kids in their care.

That just both breaks my heart and makes me mad as h#ll.

 

[GymFan96]

I might not know every incident at school or on the bus, or on a playground. But I would know something was up if it was ongoing.

And a guy like Nassar. Oh double hockey pucks no. There is no gymnastic injuries that requires internal pelvic manipulation. And Geddert we would of been out of there.

Actually there are a very few injuries that can be improved with internal adjustments. One girl even testified in her statement that an internal adjustment he made fixed her problem, but then he just continued doing internal “treatment” when it was not needed anymore.

What appears to have happened is that Nassar learned about these internal adjustments which are a real osteopathic technique, and decided to use them as a cover to molest nearly everyone, pretending to do them on dozens of girls who didn’t need them at all.

 

[gymisforeveryone]

To the OP, part of the problem is some parents actually want abusive coaching. They think it will make their kid a champion and they want that more than they want a healthy child. This empowers coaches who are abusive.

Example: I once inherited a fear-filled L7. although I barely had a chance to work with her daughter, her progress with me was not "fast enough" for her mom. At parent conference #1, I suggested her daughter work with a local sports psychologist who had successfully worked with our team. Her answer was, "if gymnastics is a sport where you need a psychologist, we'll find another sport." At parent conference #2 (2 months later) I went over everything we had tried in the gym to get her daughter over her fear and the small progress her daughter had been making in the past 2 months. It wasn't enough for mom, so I asked what exactly she was asking me to do. She leaned into me and said, "I want you to scream at her until she does what you ask her to do." I told her I was not that kind of a coach, because my goal is to create internal motivation -- not to motivate through fear. I told her that method would only work long-term if I kept getting scarier and scarier as time goes on. I then told her a few horror stories about a gym 20 minutes away who was very big on screaming, shaming and belittling. She packed up her daughter's locker and joined that gym the very next Monday. She also recruited 2 other GCMs to follow along so that their kids could be screamed at. Her daughter repeated L7 (did okay), went onto L8 (not as successful as L7), tried to compete L9, but scratched the entire season due to mental blocks. The next time I ran into the mom, ironically it was in the waiting room of the sports psychologist I had previously recommended (she was conducting a weekend workshop for local gymnasts). The kid was miserable and finally quit a few months later. The other 2 who followed also quit by age 12 due to burnout.

Another example: I overheard 2 parents from another team (the screaming, shaming and belittling team) discussing their daughter's fears. Mom #1 states that she feels so bad for her daughter because she has been going through so many fears. Mom#2 starts preaching to her that she needs to tell her daughter the same thing she tells her own, "You are not allowed to fear a new skill. Your coaches wouldn't have asked you to do the skill if they didn't know you were ready. If I hear about you balking over a skill you are told to do, I'll consider that being disrespectful to your coach and you will be grounded."

Another factor is most of us coaches are former gymnasts. Many of us had abusive coaches. A few decades ago, most gyms had no windows in their lobbies and team travel consisted of parents dropping us off at the team van which was driven by our coach to the travel meet. When you've come from an abusive environment you react one of 3 ways: get out of the sport and stay out (do not allow your own kids anywhere near it); stay in the sport and make up for your own abuse by nurturing the kids you coach; or becoming an abusive coach. Since there are enough parents who approve of abusive coaches and enough coaches who choose abusive methods, you have a match made in hell for the unfortunate kids in their care.

This. When we had our own scandal about mental abuse in one big Finnish club, there were tons of dismissive, victim shaming comments from PARENTS of gymnasts on newspapers and comment boards online. The parents were mocking the victims' parents about their way to raise their children and they were called helicopter parents and the kids were called lazy and fat. There were many "discussions" where the parents took the coaches side and they made up excuses to stand for the methods the coaches used - like weighing the gymnast, calling them fat, making them practice through pain and severe injuries, screaming at them, ignoring them and comparing their looks... The list goes on.

Many people, who have kids on their own, said flat out that competitive sports are not for everyone and if the kids can't suck it up they should not do sports at all. This country is not a gymnastics powerhouse and it was many times highlighted that this sport is not going to rise if we are not tough enough. People always talk about the US, China, Romania, Russia and what the kids go through there. It's a common sentiment that if we are not willing to sacrifice something (the well being of our kids) we will never compete with those countries. People think that our kids are too used to comfort and ease that they don't even know what hard work is and what it takes. A screaming, mentally abusive and "tough" coach is often just what the parents want for their kids, because they want champions. And when someone has the courage to rise against it, that person is quickly fumigated out of the sport and denigrated by the other parents.

 

[Deleted member 18037]

Actually there are a very few injuries that can be improved with internal adjustments. One girl even testified in her statement that an internal adjustment he made fixed her problem, but then he just continued doing internal “treatment” when it was not needed anymore.

What appears to have happened is that Nassar learned about these internal adjustments which are a real osteopathic technique, and decided to use them as a cover to molest nearly everyone, pretending to do them on dozens of girls who didn’t need them at all.

Are you a doctor, osteopath or chiropractor?

Not a snowballs chance in h@ll. Not on one persons say so. I would of looked at him and said fine. We’ll get a second opinion. And then I would of researched standard practice for whatever freaking injury it was. And take it from there

I got skewered for suggesting young teens “see”a GYN. Oh that’s to young.... .

Yet this is just oh it’s fine...

Not.A.Chance.

 

[profmom]

Ldw, I think it is very easy to judge if you have not walked that path. We can all say in perfect 20-20 hindsight that WE would have been smarter, WE would have been more vigilant, WE would have known there was something off about all of this.

In reality, I think it would have looked more like this: my daughter is an elite athlete or aspiring elite athlete with huge ambitions that drive her. She is having serious back problems that hinder her training, but all imaging has come up clear. It's just an alignment/small muscle weakness problem that won't be resolved with bracing or rest, and PT has not made it much better. She's anxious, angry, afraid and feels like her window is closing. The national team doctor recommends this procedure, and if you question it, he is good enough and credible enough and has enough paper and videos that he was able to convince a whole freaking police department that it was legit. Furthermore, OTHER PEOPLE ARE TELLING HER THE TREATMENT WORKS, that their pain or their daughter's pain was resolved and she was able to go back to training.

Stop blaming the parents en masse for this. I'm sure there was a range of reactions and a range of vigilance, but the one thing that seems crystal clear to me is that even the most careful, caring, vigilant parents, the ones we all would have pointed to and said, "that's who I would want to be if I were parenting an elite athlete" -- they were taken in too.