WAG Why No offseason

[Deleted member D3987]

on a side note, the more time you take off causes the vestibular system to go a bit on the fritz. someone noted this above. ask your kids this: when they have had more than a couple of weeks off, they go back to gym and do a simple RO>FF>Back...ask them if they saw "stars" on the first couple that they did. you'll be surprised at the answer.

for me, when i fool around every now and then, i momentarily see 'black', then stars and then my ears ring a bit for a couple minutes.

 

[gymgal]

Part of this is wondering out loud how we can keep the girls in the sport longer.

. I believe it starts with not pushing young girls (who will not be going elite) so far so fast. You mention you have a 10yr old level 8. That's a lot of hours of training on a little body and there is a lot more to come if she has aspirations of college gymnastics. You are talking about being a level 10 by 12-13. That's 5+ years of heavy pounding at Level 10. I know there are a lot of girls who are doing it. There are also a lot who burnout and a lot who get injured beyond the ability to come back. And I fully realize that a good coach will know how to change training in the off season to minimize the potential for injuries by using the pits, straps, resi's. But it is still a lot of stress on the body (physically an mentally) for an extended period of time.

I understand the theories behind the intense training when they are young, unafraid, small, light, and I completely get that this is needed for girls with elite potential - for the most part), but in the end, does the risk/reward ratio really pan out, looking at burnout and injury factors? Are girls who take a more gradual approach and reach level 10 at 14-15 at an advantage or disadvantage given the burnout/injury rates of their younger peers? Would be interesting to see some research on it...

 

[Deleted member D3987]

I would think they have to. Otherwise they are receiving a service related to their sport for free, which would be in violation of the NCAA. But many gymnasts work at the gyms as well so it could be a barter situation... coaches??

no. the NCAA does not control or police the fact that club owners let them work out for free. we can always say "their parents paid for several years and including the 4 years that they will be home for off season training".

the NCAA is the Gestapo...but they're not stupid. and they will not audit a private business lest they be sued

 

[bookworm]

the NCAA is the Gestapo...but they're not stupid. and they will not audit a private business lest they be sued

Love this! and so true...we don't pay for when my daughter goes into the gym when she's home but as one poster pointed out, her "vacations" are so short (5 days at Christmas/ 1 week in summer) that she barely gets up to the gym when she's home...she mainly trains at the school during the summer, much to her mother's dismay

 

[gracyomalley]

I understand the theories behind the intense training when they are young, unafraid, small, light, and I completely get that this is needed for girls with elite potential - for the most part), but in the end, does the risk/reward ratio really pan out, looking at burnout and injury factors? Are girls who take a more gradual approach and reach level 10 at 14-15 at an advantage or disadvantage given the burnout/injury rates of their younger peers? Would be interesting to see some research on it...[/QUOTE]

I too am wondering about this a bit. DD is 11, L8 FOR SURE THIS TIME, and unless injured or new fears would get to L10 by 14/15 for sure.

Her coaches do a great job (I think) at moving them through but not too fast - keeping the talented, driven girls in the sport to college is the goal, not elite (one kid recently did train elite briefly - then quit). At this point NO GIRL is offered more than about 20 hours a week. We certainly compete against teams with 30+ hour schedules even at early optionals. DD is a medium burn kid - works up to things mentally, never one to chuck it, and not the first to get a skill, but often the cleanest once its there. She's actually often done a few extra hours compared to her level mates because of this (and work ethic, etc). After placing well at state L7 she is on fire to learn new things this week (compared to last summer) and is the first in line to try Yurchenkos, overshoots, etc....BUT....the 2 kids who beat her at L7 state train more hours....(my brother knows a kid on that team).

I do expect that in the "medium and steady but healthy" might just win the race ?

 

[Gymkateer]

Once I stopped gymnastics, I still kept lifting weights and doing pullups and pushups, so by no means was I weak. However, when I decided to play around on bars after 6 months of not doing gymnastics, I struggled to do cast handstands, free hip handstands, and giants and I was unbelievably sore the next day!

This is probably where we get the idea that "Time off actually increases the injury rate." People can take years off from gymnastics and still be able to do easy-for-a-gymnast skills because the body remembers even though it's not physically prepared to do these skills. This is probably the root of some of the fear issues. Kids might feel physically unprepared but don't understand the feeling. It would be better to take a week or few to slowly get up to sped and then start working on those easy-for-a-gymnast skills.

 

[tomtnt]

. I believe it starts with not pushing young girls (who will not be going elite) so far so fast. You mention you have a 10yr old level 8. That's a lot of hours of training on a little body and there is a lot more to come if she has aspirations of college gymnastics. You are talking about being a level 10 by 12-13. That's 5+ years of heavy pounding at Level 10. I know there are a lot of girls who are doing it. There are also a lot who burnout and a lot who get injured beyond the ability to come back. And I fully realize that a good coach will know how to change training in the off season to minimize the potential for injuries by using the pits, straps, resi's. But it is still a lot of stress on the body (physically an mentally) for an extended period of time.

I understand the theories behind the intense training when they are young, unafraid, small, light, and I completely get that this is needed for girls with elite potential - for the most part), but in the end, does the risk/reward ratio really pan out, looking at burnout and injury factors? Are girls who take a more gradual approach and reach level 10 at 14-15 at an advantage or disadvantage given the burnout/injury rates of their younger peers? Would be interesting to see some research on it...

YES- this is what we are wondering also. I'm not sure I want those 5+ years of heavy pounding at level 10 prior to college. But how do you slow down their progress? Our has the girls competing the levels concordant with their skills.. so if she keeps picking up the skills, they'll keep moving her up.

We initially started this season wanting her to do level 7 mainly because our level 7s train less hours and days than the level 8s. But because she had all the requisite skills, they had score out of 7 and compete 8. She had a successful season (2nd AA at states) so in that sense, it was the correct decision.

But now, I'm wondering how to slow down her progress a bit to avoid burnout and potential injury from doing so many years at 9/10. But also not wanting to risk potential injuries from taking too much time off as described by others.

 

[tomtnt]

1.
...the gym we were at at the time didn't see that as an issue and refused to moderate her training so we ended up moving gyms and she has thrived and we never looked back, and she (knock on wood) has not had any further issues.

Wondering how the new gym moderated her training in comparison to her old gym with regards to her elbow injury? Less hours/repetition? More time off?

 

[gracyomalley]

Have to figure out what the long term goal is. Have you completely ruled out elite? If so, and with such a critical injury to heal properly, it seems that a year of sitting tight, staying fit and working back into L8 maybe next comp season would be perfect. Can still up train once healed, or add more C skills, work on dance, etc....

She'd clearly still have plenty of time for college gym. And she might feel more excited about gym, which is the only way she'll stick with it. We had a handful of girls repeat various levels this year despite having all or most of the next level's skills - including DD. All did well (marginally better than the first season - all had done well the first also) and came out really excited about the next level. This was DD first time repeating and I was worried it would have the opposite effect - but it didn't. No elite hopes here - and she's 11, but she's a happy gymnast again and no injuries!

Sounds like you really need to all (gymnast, parents and coach) think about where you want her in 2-4 years....and go from there.

 

[bookworm]

Wondering how the new gym moderated her training in comparison to her old gym with regards to her elbow injury? Less hours/repetition? More time off?[/QUOTE]



All of the above....1 less day a week and practices that do not include 10 routines/skills on each event so less repetitions..

 

[gasrgoose]

There is a difference between burnout and injury but most of the time people lump them into the same comment. I do not like the term burnout. All it really means is that the kid decides to no longer pursue the sport. Most of the time I hear it used it refers to the child quitting a sport before the parents and/or coaches believe they've reached their potential. My son is a naturally gifted left handed baseball pitcher. He has all the tools and had a ton of success at ages 8-12. BUT he decided he didn't want to play any longer when he turned 13. So many people said things like "it's a shame he burned out before he got a chance to play in high school" or "he had the ability to play in college". To us as parents it just means another chapter in his life book turns. He made life long friends, we traveled and made lifelong friends with parents. It was great but it did not have to last forever. Neither does gymnastics! Some kids will be gymnasts through college and then coach and gymnastics will be their life and livelihood. Others will quit at level 8,9,10 and they might go into diving, or music, or drama. And there will be everything in between

We are all in for our gymnast! Home school, 7am elite practices, etc... but we also regularly tell her if you get tired of this or want to try a new sport just let us know. She's very good at gymnastics and has great potential but it is not her only chance in life to be successful. Actually the opposite is true, because of what she is learning in gymnastics she will be successful at everything she does.

I'm now stepping off my soap!

 

[tomtnt]

There is a difference between burnout and injury but most of the time people lump them into the same comment. I do not like the term burnout. All it really means is that the kid decides to no longer pursue the sport. Most of the time I hear it used it refers to the child quitting a sport before the parents and/or coaches believe they've reached their potential. My son is a naturally gifted left handed baseball pitcher. He has all the tools and had a ton of success at ages 8-12. BUT he decided he didn't want to play any longer when he turned 13. So many people said things like "it's a shame he burned out before he got a chance to play in high school" or "he had the ability to play in college". To us as parents it just means another chapter in his life book turns. He made life long friends, we traveled and made lifelong friends with parents. It was great but it did not have to last forever. Neither does gymnastics! Some kids will be gymnasts through college and then coach and gymnastics will be their life and livelihood. Others will quit at level 8,9,10 and they might go into diving, or music, or drama. And there will be everything in between

We are all in for our gymnast! Home school, 7am elite practices, etc... but we also regularly tell her if you get tired of this or want to try a new sport just let us know. She's very good at gymnastics and has great potential but it is not her only chance in life to be successful. Actually the opposite is true, because of what she is learning in gymnastics she will be successful at everything she does.

I'm now stepping off my soap!

clinically speaking, burnout or "overtraining syndrome" is a medical diagnosis (from American Academy of Pediatrics) - http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/119/6/1242.full

The overtraining syndrome can be defined as a “series of psychological, physiologic, and hormonal changes that result in decreased sports performance.”6 Common manifestations may include chronic muscle or joint pain, personality changes, elevated resting heart rate, and decreased sports performance.6,7 The pediatric athlete may also have fatigue, lack of enthusiasm about practice or competition, or difficulty with successfully completing usual routines.

What if we can decrease the risk of "burnout" by modulating practices and recognizing that different gymnasts may need more/less hours than other gymnasts (based on their longterm goals, current age - rather than level, prior injuries, etc.)

 

[gasrgoose]

clinically speaking, burnout or "overtraining syndrome" is a medical diagnosis (from American Academy of Pediatrics) - http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/119/6/1242.full

The overtraining syndrome can be defined as a “series of psychological, physiologic, and hormonal changes that result in decreased sports performance.”6 Common manifestations may include chronic muscle or joint pain, personality changes, elevated resting heart rate, and decreased sports performance.6,7 The pediatric athlete may also have fatigue, lack of enthusiasm about practice or competition, or difficulty with successfully completing usual routines.
What if we can decrease the risk of "burnout" by modulating practices and recognizing that different gymnasts may need more/less hours than other gymnasts (based on their longterm goals, current age - rather than level, prior injuries, etc.)

I like some of the article you referenced. But I disagree with the premise... Quoted from the above referenced article "The ultimate goal of youth participation in sports should be to promote lifelong physical activity, recreation, and skills of healthy competition that can be used in all facets of future endeavors." That is not why we encourage our kids to pursue their sports. THEY DO THEM FOR FUN!!!!!! Sure there are tons of other benefits but my gymnasts loves the sport. She might not love it forever and that's ok. It doesn't need a clinical definition when she decides to stop gymnastics. And I don't need to spell out all the benefits she's getting from gymnastics, they will mean much more to her as she experiences them for herself as she matures. And it can still be fun practicing twice and day, 26 hours a week because she loves it. When it stops being fun, we will move on to the next chapter.

 

[tomtnt]

I like some of the article you referenced. But I disagree with the premise... Quoted from the above referenced article "The ultimate goal of youth participation in sports should be to promote lifelong physical activity, recreation, and skills of healthy competition that can be used in all facets of future endeavors." That is not why we encourage our kids to pursue their sports. THEY DO THEM FOR FUN!!!!!! Sure there are tons of other benefits but my gymnasts loves the sport. She might not love it forever and that's ok. It doesn't need a clinical definition when she decides to stop gymnastics. And I don't need to spell out all the benefits she's getting from gymnastics, they will mean much more to her as she experiences them for herself as she matures. And it can still be fun practicing twice and day, 26 hours a week because she loves it. When it stops being fun, we will move on to the next chapter.

Agreed- it's also why our kids do sports. However, when she does stop, I hope it is because she found something else she loves to do more and not because of overtraining or injuries.

 

[gymgal]

There is a difference between burnout and injury but most of the time people lump them into the same comment. I do not like the term burnout. All it really means is that the kid decides to no longer pursue the sport.

quite often, they go hand in hand because kids who are on the verge of burn-out in any sport are less likely to be giving their 100% attention, leading to injuries. And when they have injuries, they are more likely to treat them as more serious than what they are, using them as a valid excuse to end the sport. There is a big difference between a child just deciding he wants to quit to pursue something else that he likes better and a child quitting because it has become too overwhelming, difficult, time consuming, mentally draining, physically stressful - that is burn-out... Often times, these kids don't go to another sport right away unless the parent pushes it. They need a break from everything.

And many kids who are on the verge of burn-out often still love their sport. If we as adults can find ways to help them through it - less hours, different coaching, changes in training to account for fears, etc, then many of these kids would choose to continue, but often times they see no other way to handle it...

 

[Faith]

She might not love it forever and that's ok. It doesn't need a clinical definition when she decides to stop gymnastics. And I don't need to spell out all the benefits she's getting from gymnastics, they will mean much more to her as she experiences them for herself as she matures. And it can still be fun practicing twice and day, 26 hours a week because she loves it. When it stops being fun, we will move on to the next chapter.

"Burnout" though, may mean a gymnast isn't ready to move on. I "burned out", age 11, from high hours, high expectations, pressure, bullying coaches. Do I regret quitting? yes. But also I could not have carried on under that mental and physical strain. If someone had recognised that burnout, and re-adjusted my training, maybe said no competing for a year until you get back on track, I'd have continued in a heartbeat.

So I would describe burnout as not being able to continue, but not actually being done. We've seen many kids quit, only to return a year, two, sometimes 4 years later (check out Jessica Coombes, a UK elite athlete). If a kid is done and is ready to move on, no regrets, fine. But that's different to them just needing a different approach to continue…

In the sport DD is in now, elite kids do "quit". The coaches get together with the parents, and agree a schedule with the child so they can carry on in the sport. Switching coaches, competing lower levels, cutting hours, whatever it takes. If the child still wants to quit then so be it- but some just need 6 months with less pressure until they're ready to step up again, some want to stay in it for fun- but they do stay in it.

With regard to the "break" thing- I think it depends on the child. I could always take short breaks easily- in fact I came back feeling stronger and fully rested. If a coach is careful and builds in breaks to training, even if it's just two weeks at christmas and one other break, I think it can be beneficial.

 

[tomtnt]

.
I understand the theories behind the intense training when they are young, unafraid, small, light, and I completely get that this is needed for girls with elite potential - for the most part), but in the end, does the risk/reward ratio really pan out, looking at burnout and injury factors? Are girls who take a more gradual approach and reach level 10 at 14-15 at an advantage or disadvantage given the burnout/injury rates of their younger peers? Would be interesting to see some research on it...

From an article regarding the Utah Utes: http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/utes/57433051-89/gymnasts-training-redshirt-utah.html.csp

The durability of gymnasts is such a concern that Marsden said the coaches take into account the training hours they’ve had when they are being evaluated as recruits.

"We’ve found the ideal team for us is to have a good mix of elites who have the big names and reputations the judges know and to have good level 10s whose bodies aren’t beat up and they are still hungry for winning

 

[raenndrops]

"Burnout" though, may mean a gymnast isn't ready to move on. I "burned out", age 11, from high hours, high expectations, pressure, bullying coaches. Do I regret quitting? yes. But also I could not have carried on under that mental and physical strain. If someone had recognised that burnout, and re-adjusted my training, maybe said no competing for a year until you get back on track, I'd have continued in a heartbeat.

So I would describe burnout as not being able to continue, but not actually being done. We've seen many kids quit, only to return a year, two, sometimes 4 years later (check out Jessica Coombes, a UK elite athlete). If a kid is done and is ready to move on, no regrets, fine. But that's different to them just needing a different approach to continue…

In the sport DD is in now, elite kids do "quit". The coaches get together with the parents, and agree a schedule with the child so they can carry on in the sport. Switching coaches, competing lower levels, cutting hours, whatever it takes. If the child still wants to quit then so be it- but some just need 6 months with less pressure until they're ready to step up again, some want to stay in it for fun- but they do stay in it.

With regard to the "break" thing- I think it depends on the child. I could always take short breaks easily- in fact I came back feeling stronger and fully rested. If a coach is careful and builds in breaks to training, even if it's just two weeks at christmas and one other break, I think it can be beneficial.

we have our beaks built in... it is when we have "unscheduled" breaks - polar vortex or asbestos and a broken water main- that cause the most problems, lol.

 

[bookworm]

And many kids who are on the verge of burn-out often still love their sport. If we as adults can find ways to help them through it - less hours, different coaching, changes in training to account for fears, etc, then many of these kids would choose to continue, but often times they see no other way to handle it...

This was my daughter a few years ago...I thought she was on the verge of being done with the sport and we did exactly this...we switched to a gym with a different coaching style, less hours and decreased the pressure on her and she not only stayed in the sport, she thrived....it was just like you say, she loved the sport and we had to find a way to make it work for her , and thankfully, we did...

 

[Gymkateer]

I like some of the article you referenced. But I disagree with the premise... Quoted from the above referenced article "The ultimate goal of youth participation in sports should be to promote lifelong physical activity, recreation, and skills of healthy competition that can be used in all facets of future endeavors." That is not why we encourage our kids to pursue their sports. THEY DO THEM FOR FUN!!!!!!

They mentioned recreation.