Coaches Teaching the flyaway: layout, or tuck?

[Aero]

Hi friends! I'm starting to teach one of my girls how to do a flyaway. She's the only one who can kip so far, so I feel she is ready. We are going through the beginning drills, such as candle flips, sighting something with the eyes and tapping to that spot, getting her toes to that visual marker before releasing the bar, as well as slow, fully spotted, step by step turns through the skill so she can get a feel for the sensations involved, as well as a good idea of the body shapes involved. She is also good at tapping high and releasing at the apex of her swing so she lands on her back in the foam pit in a hollow shape (no flip), and I have thrown her into candle flips that she can land on an 8" mat in the pit.
These drills all have one thing in common: they all utilize hollow position with straight legs (candle). I have not introduced tucking into anything yet. I need some opinions here. Should I stay this course? Or should I start introducing a tuck position into the drills? Or should I have her cross train both (do every other turn in the other position)? What have you done in the past? What is your reasoning behind your methods and decision?
I feel I should cross train both, because eventually she will be doing double tucked flyaways, so even if she never competes a single tucked flyaway (doing the layout instead), it will still be valuable to teach it in the tucked position for this eventual progression. This also leads me to wonder when it would be appropriate to teach this skill in the piked position.
On a side note, have any of you ever taught a reverse flyway? What would be the situation or criteria for teaching the reverse version over the standard flyaway and it's eventual double equivalent, the Mercer (which is a D skill in FIG, compared to the standard backward double tucked flyaway, which is only a B)?

One more thing: do you have any other great drills for flyaways that she can progress to from the point she's at now? I feel like she has a decent understanding of the skill, as well as the sensation of flipping backwards while travelling forwards (gainer), but are there any other good intermediate steps before having her actually try it in its entirety?

I'm looking forward to hearing some great responses from all you veterans out there!

 

[gymdog]

They need to learn both

 

[wordsmith]

I have not introduced tucking into anything yet. I need some opinions here. Should I stay this course? Or should I start introducing a tuck position into the drills? Or should I have her cross train both (do every other turn in the other position)? What have you done in the past? What is your reasoning behind your methods and decision?

Typically, I delay teaching them to tuck as long as feasible, while teaching a basic flyaway.

The emphasis should be on establishing a good tap swing into a nice candle release.

Along with having beginners learn from tap swings, I will also simultaneously train a cast bail. My reason for this is that, typically, I will have kids who may struggle on generating a great tap swing. Having them start from a bail is a way for them to not be held back from still working the timer; and you want them to feel what a good release point should feel like as a result of sufficient swing. A strong swing helps establish a flyaway that sails up and away from the bar. Since flyaways and cast bail is introduced in level 5, might as well be training a nice (kip) cast bail, anyway. So I spot flyaway timers from both the tap swing and the bail. (Bail will also save some wear on the hands, providing for more reps).

Eventually, those who don't swing well, will do their flyaways tucked; those with sufficient swing will stay in layouts (a double tucked flyaway can be initiated through a layout; I really don't think there is a problem with introducing tucks, later- although all gymnasts should already have experience in all basic body positions, introduced since day one).

The main thing I think that's important to avoid is any chance of the feet hitting the bar. Even if there's no physical pain, the psychological effect of just doing that one time can have long-lasting repercussions.

As you know, one of the likely effects of the gymnast's head throwing back (to try and force a flip action and see the ground) is closure of the shoulder angle. And of course this increases the chance of the gymnast pulling back into the bar.

I find this habit is less likely to develop when teaching flyaways as a layout candle release followed by a tuck and drop (if teaching tucked flyaways). Head, of course, remains neutral/ears covered by the arms.

When they establish a good release point and initiate the flyaway almost upside down, half the flyaway is already done. I avoid the word "flipping" when communicating to my gymnasts any flyaways that we intentionally turnover (sometimes I do not tell my gymnasts which ones are turning over, when spotting timers. The turnovers should almost be indistinguishable from the timers; the thing is, you have to be willing to spot a lot of these until they are absolutely comfortable).

Another thing: Since I don't want beginning gymnasts to feel like they have to try and flip a flyaway really hard, to encourage a candle, turnover and drop, I will have gymnasts land either in a hollow push-up (for layout) or a "mad cat" shape (for tucks) on a soft resi or stacked 8 inchers.

Something I haven't seen others do but which I've occasionally setup for some of my gymnasts is to have them land their hollow push-up at an incline by building the slant wall you see typically used for flyaway timers where the gymnast lands on her back and then backward roll down. I've used this kind of wall for gymnasts turning their layout over to land in their hollow push up. The steeper the wall, the more upright their hollow push-up landing will be (like the way the layout will eventually end up, to their feet). I found for one of my gymnasts training out of her giants, this helped her get her toes up when she began releasing a bit early. By having the mountain there, it forced her to get her toes up more (otherwise she would have driven herself feet first into the incline wall ;-) ).

Anyway, I suppose the bottom line for why I train flyaways as layout timers first is because I feel that introducing tucks too early for a basic flyaway often results in the gymnast creating bad habits- head throwing back, pulling into the bar, and overflipping.

Everything about a good flyaway will be dependent upon a great tap swing. So spend a lot of time on developing that.

My two pence.

 

[wordsmith]

Forgot to make mention another reason to train it from cast bail is, in looking ahead to level 7 & 8, gymnasts need to get comfortable with controlling their flyaway out of greater swing (ultimately out of handstand/giant). Since it's easier to pitch it up and away from the bar when you do have more swing, I just think this helps eliminate some fear issues that may crop up in regards to hitting the bar (more likely when you don't get enough swing). That, and spotting tons of layout timers.

 

[Deleted member 14190]

Stick with the layout, add the tuck later on. Also, I find it easier to teach a flyaway from a cast, along with from a swing. Mix it up, then get them to a H stand as soon as they are ready. I believe learning the flyaway from numerous entries makes it easier for the kids to do it from a swing, (less scary and they just understand it better and they like it from a cast, so they swing bigger to try and simulate the same power). PS. we don't every use the word flyaway, EVER. we do big tap timers,,, next year you can call it a flyaway.