Off Topic Athletes/Coaches taking a knee during the anthem at meets

[2gymmies]

My dds US History class decided as a group after debating the subject that the protest needs to be significant to the cause. Like Rosa Parks refusing to get out of her bus seat because of segregated busses. If the football players are protesting black lives matter then the protest needs to do with that to be most impactful - people historically losing the meaning of the protest if not (think flag burning back in the day, why specifically did people do it????).

The teens also decided that a component of the issue is that the players are protesting while working on their jobs, which would never be tolerated by most employers so why should they be treated differently than the concession stand workers or the sideline crew or any employee at their job.

Btw, she is 17 and a junior and said in a cute and honest way, “mom, I had no idea there were so many implications when you take a side on something controversial.” Make me think that there is no way younger kids could possibly get it without parent direction.

 

[Aussie_coach]

I have often found US patriotism to be very surprising. To hear kids pledge allegiance to the flag in school each morning and see everyone with their hand over their heart for the anthem.

When our anthem plays at sporting events (which doesn't actually happen that often). You look around and some people are fidgeting, others are looking around the room, some are whispering, others are whispering the words, others singing at about 3 decibels and that's just the adults.

 

[2gymmies]

I think American patriotism changed a lot after 9/11 but it seems to be changing again.

 

[gymgal]

I have often found US patriotism to be very surprising. To hear kids pledge allegiance to the flag in school each morning and see everyone with their hand over their heart for the anthem.

When our anthem plays at sporting events (which doesn't actually happen that often). You look around and some people are fidgeting, others are looking around the room, some are whispering, others are whispering the words, others singing at about 3 decibels and that's just the adults.

I think American patriotism changed a lot after 9/11 but it seems to be changing again.

I agree that 9-11 helped to re-foster the sense of patriotism in our country, but I was raised in the 70s/80s and clearly remember having a strong sense of pride in our country. We stood for the Flag, the pledge, and the Anthem in school, parades, sports events. It began changing when some Americans started questioning our notion of American Exceptionalism, which is where our patriotism/pride stems from

For the record, I have always had a problem with pledging allegiance to a *flag*. If I am pledging allegiance, it is to the nation, not the flag.

 

[Geoffrey Taucer]

I think the unquestioned assumption of American Exceptionalism is a major problem in this country. By what measure are we exceptional? I'm not saying we aren't, but rather than treat American Exceptionalism as an unquestioned assumption, we need to treat it as a goal that we continually strive for. In many ways, I think we are falling severely short.

What rose after 9-11 is not something I'd call patriotism, but jingoism.

My dds US History class decided as a group after debating the subject that the protest needs to be significant to the cause. Like Rosa Parks refusing to get out of her bus seat because of segregated busses. If the football players are protesting black lives matter then the protest needs to do with that to be most impactful - people historically losing the meaning of the protest if not (think flag burning back in the day, why specifically did people do it????).

The teens also decided that a component of the issue is that the players are protesting while working on their jobs, which would never be tolerated by most employers so why should they be treated differently than the concession stand workers or the sideline crew or any employee at their job.

Out of curiosity, what's the racial make up of that class like?

 

[Geoffrey Taucer]

After giving it further thought, my own plan is to let my athletes take the lead. If none of them take a knee, then I won't either, to avoid taking attention away from them. If any of them does kneel, then I'll kneel as well, to show solidarity, support, and encouragement towards them.

 

[ayyyrial]

Something I didn't realize but heard on the radio recently was that Kapernick was originally sitting during the national anthem, but a person who I believe was both a military veteran and a former athlete reached out to him to say that he felt sitting was disrespectful, and together they came up with the idea of kneeling as an action that could express protest but also be respectful.

I really feel bolstered by seeing professional athletes express personal and political thoughts, in this way or any other. I like to know that they can still be real people and be political (if they want), even though they also have a career that puts them in the spotlight.

 

[profmom]

Spoken as someone who is an occasional participant, I can confirm that the debate over American exceptionalism goes all the way back to the writings of Alexis de Toqueville in the early 1800s.

As for youth, I do appreciate that children should be fully conscious of what it means to participate in political action, but it's important to remember the children who were at the forefront of the battle against Jim Crow. Linda Brown, the lead plaintiff in Brown v. Board, was six. Many participants in the sit ins in the 1960s were elementary and secondary school children. Some of the children who were the first to desegregate their schools paid an enormous psychic toll for the rest of their lives, but they all believed that on balance, it was worth it.

I do not think the principles that reject compelled flag salute have ever been expressed any better than in Justice Jackson's majority opinion in West Virginia v. Barnette, decided in 1943, also a time when patriotism was very politically salient. In part, he writes:

"To believe that patriotism will not flourish if patriotic ceremonies are voluntary and spontaneous, instead of a compulsory routine, is to make an unflattering estimate of the appeal of our institutions to free minds. We can have intellectual individualism and the rich cultural diversities that we owe to exceptional minds only at the price of occasional eccentricity and abnormal attitudes. When they are so harmless to others or to the State as those we deal with here, the price is not too great. But freedom to differ is not limited to things that do not matter much. That would be a mere shadow of freedom. The test of its substance is the right to differ as to things that touch the heart of the existing order.

If there is any fixed star in our constitutional constellation, it is that no official, high or petty, can prescribe what shall be orthodox in politics, nationalism, religion, or other matters of opinion, or force citizens to confess by word or act their faith therein. If there are any circumstances which permit an exception, they do not now occur to us.

We think the action of the local authorities in compelling the flag salute and pledge transcends constitutional limitations on their power, and invades the sphere of intellect and spirit which it is the purpose of the First Amendment to our Constitution to reserve from all official control."

 

[gymgal]

After giving it further thought, my own plan is to let my athletes take the lead. If none of them take a knee, then I won't either, to avoid taking attention away from them. If any of them does kneel, then I'll kneel as well, to show solidarity, support, and encouragement towards them.

Just pondering... Are you concerned that by you're kneeling in solidarity, you are pressuring the rest of the team to do the same for their teammate? If they don't, then they may feel like they are not supporting the one(s) who is/are. This is not really an issue if the coach doesn't take a position because then it is viewed as a gymnast making an individual decision, but when a coach does it in solidarity, it makes a different statement. Now, if the coach clearly explains to the team beforehand that it is his/her personal choice and no one is obligated/encouraged to follow suit, that's different. I just know that at a younger age, my daughter would have felt compelled to kneel if she saw her coach kneeling to support a teammate, without really understanding the reasoning.

 

[Geoffrey Taucer]

Just pondering... Are you concerned that by you're kneeling in solidarity, you are pressuring the rest of the team to do the same for their teammate?

Not really. My area is pretty mixed politically, and our lead upper-level coach is pretty conservative. There is zero likelyhood that more than one or two team members will kneel, if any do at all. For those that remain standing, there is little to no risk of social backlash.