Athletes or Children?

[triptwister]

Athleticism is an equalizer working in the same body as one. A child who is now an athlete appreciates that they are a member of that body. Instead of being treated as a child they are treated as an athlete. They wouldn't have it any other way. Its a respect for kinship in something bigger than life and bigger than themselves that all athletes share. This is why an athlete walks tall and proud because they add up to something big through a common tenacity. As competency accrues it adds dimension and definition to what an athlete represents. The body of athleticism is a wondrous thing that defines the person.

When you look at a young athlete, do you see a child or do you see an athlete?

 

[Deanna]

I agree about the pride, and sense of being a part of a whole. I also believe that an accomplished athlete, no matter what their sport walk a little taller ect. But so do other children who are acomplished in what they do. Sports, music, scholastics, what have you. Any child that excels or is acomplished at their passion is this way.

As far as having to define them as a child or athlete. I couldnt and wouldnt. My daughter is so much more than just one or the other.

Im sure if you were to ask well known athletes who they are, the sport they are in would only be part of how they define themselves. As i feel it should be.

JMHO

 

[CanAmGymMum]

I look at my child as my child and will continue to do so no matter how great her accomplishments are as an athlete. I hope she will be able to look at herself in that way as well. I think gymnastics is unique in that it requires so much dedication starting at such a young age. It is often times hard for the athlete to not let the sport define who she is. Speaking from personal experience, I can tell you that once retired, gymnastics will always be in your blood. However, I think those who are successful later in life, are those who are able to realize that they have much more to offer than a good routine.

 

[triptwister]

For the most part there is a consensus among professionals that parents should not coach their own children. It is because and when a parent cannot see beyond a parental perspective that an athlete cannot be treated as one.

Most kids do not want advice or coaching from their parents because of this. An athlete wants to be treated as an athlete and not as a child. Something a parent finds almost impossible.

Its gets even more complicated when a coaching parent successfully transcends their parental perspective and manages to treat their child the same as any other athlete. The child feels removed, distant, and confused about the natural parent-offspring roles.

When you look at other parent's kids who are athletes, do you see children, or do you see athletes? When you look at your kid, do you see a child, or do you now respect your child as an athlete?

 

[Galadriel]

My child is now 17 and a half. When younger she did artistic but changed to another discipline in gymnastics later on - and it worked for her.For the last probably 3 years or so i have taken a major major step back.I was too pushy for her. I listened, I respected her views, I thought - well - if she is an athlete who will succeed it will be on her own terms - really the only way i have realised for an athlete to succeed is if THEY really really want it, THEY really really work hard compared to everyone else, THEY listen to the results, the coaches feedback, their own voice,injuries, and work accordingly.My own dd has made big leaps in progress in the last 2 years - more so in the last 6 - 12 months. She is achieving more, starting to realise she is good, and what her hard work does - she does it for herself - she likes me to approve, but i was banned (by her) from coming to competitions for about 2 years! I went to one this year where she did well, and she said that i was good because i just sat there and chatted with everyone and didnt talk to her!She is an athlete definitely, but she is above all my lovely darling child. She has gone to college to do sport, and sees herself as an athlete. I probably pushed her more than she wanted when she was little and she quit swimming which she was great at...But she is happy now, and owns her own sport.Sometimes i wonder whether as a little one they need a little more direction in sport, - as in - come on, you are good, work hard and you will get results, dont give up - do your conditioning even if you dont feel like it - but when they get to 12 or so they need to own it more and we need to take a big step backI will hold my hands upI was a bad parent in terms of sport..Now i have learntAnd thank god she is happy and healthy and wants it for herself...

 

[standsonherhands]

My children are my children first and foremost, but I was intrigued by this question. I have had moments when I saw my children for the athletes they are. For brief moments I have watched them in shear awe of their ability, toughness, or sportsmanship. In those moments my children were impressive athletes, and I could appreciate their talent as notable and as theirs. Of course then my mother's heart swells with pride, but those moments are some of the times I am most able to recognize my children as the individuals they are becoming.

 

[lilgymmie7]

"Speaking from personal experience, I can tell you that once retired, gymnastics will always be in your blood."

This is so true! Iregardless of my child being in the sport, I will always have a love for the sport that gave me so much joy when I was a gymnast. However, now that it is my DD's chance/time I repect the fact that gymnastics is hers. Win or lose, acquire the skill or not, I enjoy watching my child as the CHILD she is. Gymnastics will be hers as an athlete for just some time, the life lessons she learns because of being involved will be hers forever! When it is her time to hang up her leo, I want her only to have positive experiences and rememberances. I want her to feel that urge to introduce her DD or DS to the sport because of those positive personal encounters.

 

[Deanna]

Trip, i agree with you on just about all of it, until you get to the part about of them either being identified as an athlete or a child. I can and do "respect" my child as an athlete, and i can say with out a problem that she is an athlete, but she is also a child. Just because she is an athlete doesnt remove the child factor. IMHO I think when you say they should be indentified as one or the other. And you make it sound as if, if you dont identify them as an athlete you are somehow failing them. I think that is teetering on the edge of a rocky cliff. If I were to souly indentify my daughter as an athlete and not as the child she also is, and this is how she is ALWAYS identified, then how is she to know who she is, if and when her sport comes to an end?

Yes my daughter does gymnastics. Maybe she will do it for years, maybe she will quit next week. I dont know. But my daughter is also...
Smart..she remembers everything..this is good and bad..lol
Funny..she is a little ham, loves to make people laugh
Witty..i thought i was a smart butt..i dont have anything on this kid
Friendly/Socialble...she makes friends standing in line somewhere..i am sooo akward in public situations
Sympathetic/Empathetic...she has the sweetest little heart, and hates to see anyone sick or hurt
Helper..she loves to help

She has so many other things about her that are worth being a part of her. And if i were to take out the child factor and souly identify her as an athlete, then all those things are gone with it.

Why is it not possible for them to be both.

I am not trying to argue, I am not trying to fight. Just stating how as a parent I feel. Do you have children Trip? If you do, how would/do you handle this with your kids? If you dont have children, you will never understand where I am coming from until you do.

 

[Deleted member D3987]

i have always looked at them as student athetes.

all 3 of my now very grown children all did gymnastics. they appreciated that i did not coach them and when we came home at night their 'dad' did not discuss gymnastics. this was a house rule.

 

[Linsul]

I feel I was always both to my parents. Homework and family always came first, but they bent so many rules over gym/dance that every once in awhile I thought I was miss thing super athlete. They always checked me though!

My dad was fixing my hand after a bad rip at home after practice one night, and my older brother was sitting at the kitchen table. At some point it hurt and I swore, and my dad didn't bat an eyelash. My brothers head had snapped up right away, anticipating a lecture or punishment. Better yet even both! When it didn't come he lamented the unfairness of it all, and my dad said 'When you bleed for something someday you can swear all you want.' They had a good natured spat over what was worth bleeding over and then my brother left. So my dad and I sit down to eat, and I'm positively bursting with my need to gloat at the nearest opportunity at my brother. I inhale my food like a newly minted gym-hero who can do no wrong; and am ready to start the festivities of how awesome it is to be me vs dumb brother when my dad says "You know you only got away with that because I wanted to mess with him, right? Don't do it again! It was an impressive rip though, can't say I blame you entirely...just watch it" Man....there went my bragfest.

They always thought sports and dance were awesome, but I for sure was a kid first. I would most likely treat my daughter the same way, but she doesn't do anything competitively at the moment.

 

[coachmolly]

I really don't think there is any need to classify them as one or the other, can't the be both? I think it's appropriate for a parent or coach to be leaning a little more in one direction than another (hopefully the appropriate direction for the role they play), but I really see no reason to pick.
As a coach, I can see the girls I work with as both. At the lower levels, I regard them as children much more frequently. At the higher levels, there are days I view them as incredible athletes who show great strength, courage, motivation, whatever, and other times when I see the exact same child as a kid who just really needs a break from the usual practice, needs time to be a little silly, or whatever the case may be. There is no doubt they are athletes, but they are also children with very distinct personalities, needs, and goals for themselves.
I was a kid who grew up kind of fast based on circumstances out of my control, and was an excessively serious child. Looking back, I see how many things I missed because of that approach to life. I do not in any way want to encourage that path to the children I coach because you only get to be a kid once, enjoy it while it lasts!

 

[emandelsmom]

You can't really call them the same classifications. Child is age. My child would be my personal offspring and all the emotional and psychological and genetic connections that go with that. Athlete is that of someone who participates in a sport. Not related as in one or the other.
I respect the fact that my girls are athletic but it is not who they are in a nutshell. It is a small part of them. It is an activity. My parental goal is to raise caring, smart children into adulthood. Gymnastics is what they love doing, but it is not who they are. I don't look at my child and think athlete. I look at them and I am filled with awe at what wonderful little people they already are and what they are potentially becoming.

 

[triptwister]

Athleticism while you have it, pursue it, and are sustained by it, does define you. Its what makes the word "athlete" your name.

I thank the parents that have justified their perspective in this thread which says that a parent cannot define their children apart from parenting. It proves my point about a coach versus what a parent sees.

The kids are athletes to us coaches. That's the way we treat them. Thats the way they like it. That's the way it works. When you rub parents with coaches, you get friction. The heat can get so intense that the whole gym can burn down.

The problem is that us coaches need to build a professional culture in our industry. Its not that parents have nothing to contribute to the trade. The problem is that parents do not form a parallel with coaching. Its like trying to eat a sandwich with flies buzzing around your mouth. Or its like wearing a ball and chain on your ankles while you pick cotton all day.

Coaches need to collaborate and expand leadership roles. They need to standardize teaching methods and build consistency. Gyms should guarantee standards of practice which as yet need to be defined and set to task. Gyms should practice standards that guarantee the public what to expect. Open ended goals and expectations should be a thing of the past.

Gyms across the board should be characterized as rationally planned, programmatically organized, based on standard operating procedures. We need to take control of our sport and own it.

Parents are a part of the equation but the solution belongs to the coaches and athletes who do the math or aught to be doing it.

 

[Granny Smith]

Parents are a part of the equation but the solution belongs to the coaches and athletes who do the math or aught to be doing it.

Wrong. You are a coach and like you just said you only see an athlete not a child. You will continue to push the athlete to obtain your goals while disregarding the well-being of the child. If you can not look at the person in front of you and see both a child and an athlete I can gladly say you will not be getting my money which is your livelyhood/survival because you will be the coach that steps over the boundaries and disregards the physical and mental well being of my offspring.

In the end, the parent is the one who pays and gets to call the shots and since gyms are a dime a dozen we have plenty to choose from and that goes for coaches too.

The coach that parents seek is the one who is well-balanced and not so over the edge that you question their sanity.

 

[triptwister]

For as long as our industry remains disordered and a helter skelter of expectations, we will have parents that think we are not professional. This is not about recognizing that an athlete is also a child. Educated and erudite coaches understand child athleticism and know how to capitalize on it. This is about standards, professionalism, and ownership. We are the leaders, we are the experts, but we are inconsistent and do what pleases our selfishness. This needs to stop. We need standards, we need coalition, and we need to be the ones who script the definitions of our craft. Shame on you, coaches. How many gymnasts do not get what the parents pay for due to dubious standards that lack professionally defined parameters? How much time will a gymnast stay at level 6 and never move up year after year? How many excuses will that gym give the parents? Blame does not motivate the victim. Like a franchise, we need to co-join and assure the public gets their money's worth. Are you hearing me, coaches? Take responsibility exclusively not for yourselves, but for all as one. One bad apple makes the whole bunch dubious. Lets fix this.

 

[Linsul]

In the end, the parent is the one who pays and gets to call the shots and since gyms are a dime a dozen we have plenty to choose from and that goes for coaches too.

As the one who pays you get to make the choice to stay or go. I've never seen a parent 'call the shots' in regards to the program of any gym I've worked at. Were it possible we'd have plenty of competitive gymnasts from home basements gyms. Coming at a problem to an owner or HC with that attitude...I've seen it done and the gym always prevails. I say prevail even in the event the athlete leaves, because if parents got to dictate program, that would be a catastrophic failure of another sort.

Gyms may be plentiful, but they are not 'a dime a dozen' in regard to staff experience or program quality. I don't know details of the 4 closest programs around my gym, but I could rattle off the biggest differences easily. I would hope parents of competitive gymnasts could too, as part of researching the program they decide to put their child in.

I wish it were as easy as a post or sit down with parents to get them to understand fully what a gyms program is about. The reality is that you can't take the combined experience of the staff and the past/present/future of a gyms policies and condense it a way that someone who doesn't do it will feel 100% secure with. A level of trust and acceptance is required. Even as a coach this is true. We don't look at kids and immediately label them as 'elite' 'optional' 'rec' 'olympian' or 'compulsory'. If we could tell the future we'd be able to answer a lot more questions and solve a lot more nagging worries easily. We have to have the same faith in the program as the parents do and hope for the best even as we strive for it.

For as long as our industry remains disordered and a helter skelter of expectations, we will have parents that think we are not professional. This is not about recognizing that an athlete is also a child. Educated and erudite coaches understand child athleticism and know how to capitalize on it. This is about standards, professionalism, and ownership. We are the leaders, we are the experts, but we are inconsistent and do what pleases our selfishness. This needs to stop. We need standards, we need coalition, and we need to be the ones who script the definitions of our craft. Shame on you, coaches. How many gymnasts do not get what the parents pay for due to dubious standards that lack professionally defined parameters? How much time will a gymnast stay at level 6 and never move up year after year? How many excuses will that gym give the parents? Blame does not motivate the victim. Like a franchise, we need to co-join and assure the public gets their money's worth. Are you hearing me, coaches? Take responsibility exclusively not for yourselves, but for all as one. One bad apple makes the whole bunch dubious. Lets fix this.

I don't even understand this. Every other post it seems like you're suggesting the sport become some kind of monoculture. That doesn't serve the masses, it forces them into one option. A programs differences are also it strength. Differing standards on safety, not so good. Differing standards on programs that are dedicated to a particular gyms goals, how is that bad? Supporting one giant program is not only impossible, but would exclude too many to even be a viable business option.

I don't feel shame. I work at program that clearly defines itself, with a record that speaks for itself. One that I put my own child in happily. One that attracts over qualified coaches who coach all levels quite happily, that enables such trust of it's staff that we are empowered to make both the kids and the parents happy without having to go through multiple time wasting policy redundancies. If you're sounding the clarion call to coaches, it would make more sense to ask that we do our homework and really vet a gym before accepting a position there. Happy coaches make good programs. Standards make happy athletes and parents. In the event of change on the athlete or parents part, a program with a 'healthy' outlook can and will let them go without drama or bridge burning. Existing to please everyone is a sure way to end up with a poor result.

 

[Deleted member D3987]

well, i'm a little come lately on this one but our industry is all screwed up.

it's kinda like religion. religion is supposed to be a good thing for people. yet more people have died because of religion and in the name of God than all other known reasons that people have died since the beginning of time. and it's people that have killed people.

now you got all these gyms, kinda like churches, and you got all these people. unfortunately for the kids, kids are the reason that we are all here. and they bear witness to all of the adults who are in charge of their 'religious' upbringing.

so, you got all these people 'killin' each other every day in all the ways that you hear on this site. and you have all the governing bodies, the heads of national and international churches, that have become 'reactive' bodies because the 'congregations' have all lost their minds and they don't even know where to start.

and in fairness, it's not just in gymnastics. youth sports has become the foot of the mount when Moses looked down and witnessed all the 'partying' that was taking place. from little league baseball fields, to soccer fields, to ice rinks, to dance studios, etc; youth sports has fallen to hell in a handbasket.

and trip, i get what you're saying. but look at the world over the last 20 years. if presidents and prime ministers can't get it right, what makes you think that coaches can right the ship? the problems we all see are complex and complicated from a human condition point of view. i see no end in sight. and i'm NOT being a debbie downer. i'm just a guy out here trying to survive in an environment that i did not create. i can only watch and guard over my own little 'church'. but dang...it's getting harder all the time as i have to come in to contact with the congregations of people.

i can hardly enjoy attending a game of any kind to watch my nieces and nephews for fear that someone might say or do something stooooooooopid and that i might 'go off' on them and then I look like the "crazy" person or uncle. what do i have to look forward to when i become a grandfather? geesh...i will probably have to carry a weapon to protect myself from the 'crazies' that have become the new majority.

don't have any answers or solutions on this one. only my humble and aged observations of life the last 20 years till present. carry on.

and linsul...would you not agree that we are in a state of educational perpetuity in regards to parents and the generations to come? you see folks, for us coaches it never ends. we either get old or burn out or both. but the parents move on in time as their time has been served. get it??

 

[Linsul]

and linsul...would you not agree that we are in a state of educational perpetuity in regards to parents and the generations to come?

I do. I learn new things daily from kids, coaches, and parents. Problem solving in creative ways comes with the job. When people need help or change in some way and I can provide it, it happens. When someone says they have a problem, yet comes at me with strictly a threat to leave, that's not someone looking for a solution. That's someone looking to exert control. Whether or not that happens is up to the owner/HC but I've never seen them bow down to one persons check book.

 

[cathiann]

Wrong. You are a coach and like you just said you only see an athlete not a child. You will continue to push the athlete to obtain your goals while disregarding the well-being of the child. If you can not look at the person in front of you and see both a child and an athlete I can gladly say you will not be getting my money which is your livelyhood/survival because you will be the coach that steps over the boundaries and disregards the physical and mental well being of my offspring.

In the end, the parent is the one who pays and gets to call the shots and since gyms are a dime a dozen we have plenty to choose from and that goes for coaches too.

The coach that parents seek is the one who is well-balanced and not so over the edge that you question their sanity.

I agree with this as well--but add that by "call the shots" I mean if I don't like the way a coach is treating my child, I'll find another gym (after expressing what upsets me). I'm not expecting to be out there on the floor micromanaging coaching. But I do expect the coach to realize my child athlete is a CHILD--she is 12 yr old right now and should not be expected to be treated as an adult--even in athletic matters. Sometimes our coaches lose sight of that too.

 

[Coacharella]

Firstly, I assume triptwister is referring strictly to competitive gymnastics. Because the moment we stop viewing recreational gymnasts as "children", and solely as athletes, we loose alot of kids coming to try our sport.

I coach 4-8 year olds. If I didn't treat them like children, let's just say that my athletes would not be where they are today. It is completely okay, and possible, for a competitive gymnastics coach to view their students as BOTH athletes AND children. Knowing how is the key.

I am no expert, but I am confident enough to discuss this based on a) my students' love for the sport, and b) my students' progress and skill level in the sport.

Treating a young child like an athlete is possible if you do this age appropriately. Telling a 14 year old L10 gymnast to "open your shoulders, and hollow out" is the same thing as telling a 4 year old L2 to "stretch your arms way up tall like a tree, make your body tall and reach to the sky , and now squeeze your muscles and tuck in your bum". You are just saying it in 2 ways - how a teenager, more experienced athlete can understand versus how a young, child athlete can understand.

Ultimately the athletes we coach range in age, personality, skill level and what not but to say that we treat them ALL just like athletes is a sweeping statement. (whatever "treating them like athletes" even means)But.... They're kids. Sometimes they wanna be silly, sometimes they are sensitive, sometimes they need to laugh, and then they also need to be disciplined, taught by proper example, encouraged, etc...

If I have completely missed triptwister's point, then disregard. I just do not quite understand trip's last post about coaches taking responsibility and fixing this and getting rid of bad apple coaches. I guess I just don't follow what he/she means to treat them solely like athletes. What exactly does that mean?