Parents Consequences

[mommyof1]

Group rewards = good.
Group punishment = not good unless the whole group did something wrong together.

 

[Muddlethru]

"Punishing" the entire team for the bad behavior of one is NOT team building. I don't believe bad behavior has a place in team building.

In any event, it does seem unfair that if one or two girls can't complete their assignment that the rest have to keep working until the task assigned to everyone is completed by everyone. My daughter is always one of the ones that completes her assigned task but has to keep working while the others complete theirs (and at times even as one or two cheats or takes their time or really just does not care). She tells me this and she is very upset. She's my daughter; so of course I too feel upset. She's 14, I let her vent and then we move on. As hard as it is for me to see my daughter upset and frustrated, I don't think it hurts her in any way. She gets extra conditioning, which makes her stronger and it teaches her tolerance and acceptance and forgiveness as well. I also see it as her (and her team) helping perhaps a weaker team mate out push themselves. This is what I try to think to get myself out of pitying my daughter.

Gymnastics is still a team sport and team building is not just a military strategy. Think about any team sport, if a player messes up, the rest of the team have to work harder to make up for the mess up. In a relay race for instance, one runner trips, the others must work/run faster to make up for the loss in time. In a basketball game, football game, a fumble, an error, a foul, the rest of the team has to work harder together. I don't see the difference. Is there a better way to build a team, perhsps. But it really is not such a bad deal.

 

[Gymmommy71]

This tactic has been used in a positively reinforcing way for my DDs group on occasion - for ex. everyone hits their beam routines, they get a small reward (reduction in conditioning, ice cream party). Girls seem to like it and it builds up team morale IMO.

Using it in a punishing way, especially for things like missed skills or true physical weaknesses (as opposed to laziness or cheating) seems like it would be very defeating and create internal resentment towards kids who are struggling. Sounds like something that would go on in gyms that have no qualms at all if their struggling gymnasts quit - like a natural selection/"survival of the fittest" philosophy type of gym.

 

[Deleted member 18037]

This tactic has been used in a positively reinforcing way for my DDs group on occasion - for ex. everyone hits their beam routines, they get a small reward (reduction in conditioning, ice cream party). Girls seem to like it and it builds up team morale IMO.
.

The tactics are not the same.

Reward is this tactic, punishment would be that tactic.

Not remotely the same.

 

[munchkin3]

4theloveofsports."....

Very different.....rising up to try and make up speed for a relay race when your tema mate falls, or trying hard to stick your floor routine when you are tenths away from helping your team win is very different than having a coach punish a team because of one teammates bad behavior.......this causes actual team division, and would NOT create the feelings of rising up to 'take it for the team'..........
Now, it may be very different for Highschool, or older athletes that could internalize this sort of thing differently, but it is never to be used on children......anyone under 16, most definitely NOT.....I speak from experience when I say this.....I've had the director of the entire YMCA basically say that was unacceptable when our ex-coach was told this, he was not in agreement and started talking about how in college, this and that........very different when talking about 13 yo.....

I would argue that that sort of punitive action would actually break a young team apart, not unify it. When my 10yo comes home and tells me that Billy got the whole class in trouble again, and there was not recess again because of him, I can assure you, those cruel 10yo, don't invite him to any parties, he has no playground friends, the teachers call him the trouble maker......Nobody likes Billy......that's NOT team building...

 

[profmom]

I think it all depends on whether it's framed as a threat with the potential of punishment or a challenge to which the athletes are encouraged to rise that happens to have some minor stakes attached to make it more meaningful. Most of the time, DS's old coach set it up in the latter fashion, which was why it worked. I can tell you as an empirical fact that the boys became MORE supportive of and engaged with the weakest boys' struggles through this tactic.

 

[munchkin3]

Agreed profmom.....it's all how it presented.........by saying, 100 burpees because so and so cheated on conditioning......no.

 

[skschlag]

Agreed profmom.....it's all how it presented.........by saying, 100 burpees because so and so cheated on conditioning......no.

Just to take a different perspective, D has one kiddo on team that ALWAYS cheats on conditioning. Now the optionals all condition together. Coach did add conditioning to everyone one day, because this kiddo skipped conditioning stations. Now, the other boys stay with him, and help him get through all the conditioning.

Before this, they just looked at the kid with anger, ignored him, and left him alone. The kid is actually MORE a part of the team now because the boys realize that they have to work together, and they have to help each other, or they all have to deal with the consequences. This kid is actually doing better, and getting along better with the boys because of this.

 

[catova]

Coaches have used it (L7-L10), for conditioning cheaters, or skills pressure. It is used selectively, and not as an every day thing. I was wary. I would have doubted it could ever be effective. Imagine my surprise when my own DD told me 'there was no way I was going to fall on xx skill today and have my group have to do an extra 20 pushups'. She has also missed the skill in this situation, and the girls support one another. Coaches never call out the conditioning cheater in front of the group but DD tells me everyone knows who the offender is and usually, conditioning cheating stops for awhile after they are all held responsible. I can see this going sideways depending on how it's used, but DD doesn't seem to have a problem with how it's been used at her gym.

 

[mom2newgymnast]

On conditioning, yes. If one girl's feet touch the ground on a hollow hold, for example, all must do an extra 50 hollow-ups or whatever. This is very common at our gym.

I think it happens occasionally on skill work. I recall DD telling me about having to redo handstands or cartwheels on the beam (part of the L4 routine during meet season) as a group until nobody falls. That seemed ok. They can all use repetitions of these anyway. I imagine coach might be trying to simulate some of the 'pressure' of competing? I don't get the impression this is a common everyday tactic, though. The girls don't seem upset. I do think they internalized it as a 'team challenge' as opposed to any kind of punishment.

I think how the coach approaches it - how they set up expectations and the words they use when someone does fall/fail - can make a big difference.

My dd's coaches do this too. They recently had a meet where none of the girls did as good on the beam as the coaches expected. The next week in practice, they spent a lot of time repeating the beam skills. At one point the coach divided them into groups and everyone in the group had to perform the skill 5 times without falling or they would all have to start over. The girls didn't seem to mind and they definitely looked more confident in those skills when they were done.

They also sometimes set up competitions where they divide the team in half and the girls go head to head with a girl in the other group on a particular skill. Whoever wins each round gets a point. When one of the groups reaches a certain total, they get to make up a conditioning "punishment" for the other group (like 20 pushups). They love doing this!

During conditioning, they do sometimes have to start over if someone is messing around. My dd loves conditioning, so she doesn't complain.

But they don't punish the group for something like one of the gymnasts being late or dropping something. Or if one of them falls or doesn't execute a skill correctly during the normal practice time, they would never punish the team for that (or even the gymnast that did it). Falling or making mistakes or whatever is just part of practice. I can't imagine punishing someone for that.

 

[JoyAvenueMom]

This is used sparingly at Kipper's gym. Hit or Miss. Hit your routine, and no penalty. Miss the routine and you have to "give" a rope climb to someone else. No one wants to miss, and they are more motivated than if they had to do their own rope climbs. Also, they occasionally restart conditioning activities if an individual (or several) are cheating. ONE time, I heard the coach gave out extra conditioning to the group due to a behavior issue with one kid. I think he was trying to find something that might snap her out of her attitude. It didn't, and the incident has not been repeated. On the contrary, sometimes the group is rewarded if a single person has a big accomplishment.

 

[Kate E]

My DD's group are mainly 7/8yr olds with my DD at 6 (think there are 16 in the group) they get split into smaller groups for conditioning, skills & rotations...the only thing they do as a whole is warm ups.

Whilst say conditioning on bars if someone in that group drops down then that group has to repeat whatever it was 10 extra times, someone fell x4 once and my DD 'needed to be spoken to about team work' as she reacted with a 'gggrrr' on the girls 4th fall. I laughed but also explained to my Dd she needs to keep it inside and rant afterwards to me or dad and to feel for the girl thinking of how she would feel if it was her and asked if she thinks she could encourage instead to be kind. A few weeks ago a few girls were not listening properly so the whole 3.5 hour session was spent doing conditioning....no one was happy with that.

I can see that they are trying to get them to realise they are a team and need to listen always but I don't really like the way it's done as I think it's a bit mean on the one who has caused the consequence as they must feel rubbish and I think it makes the others a bit cross but until my DD says it really bothers her and ruins her enjoyment of the activity or I see it causing negative emotions in her then I'll keep shut but the minute I get a true hint of it changing her I'll be speaking up.

 

[ascarter1]

For the parents: Do your coaches ever 'punish' the team for the actions of one kid? So if one kid falls on a skill then all girls have to do 5 additional repeats. Or if a girl isn't doing the conditioning right they all have to do extra? Or if a kid drops food on the floor or is late. etc. Does this bother your child and create anxiety?

For the coaches: I'm trying to understand why does this help? I feel like this is making the girls who fall feel horrible and creating huge anxiety even in the ones who don't that they might fall. It also seems to make the girls who don't fall resent the ones who do, although this is not the issue I have with my DD. But overall it seems to be killing team spirit instead of helping them bond, unless you consider their collective dislike for the coaches "team spirit".

I really want to talk to my DDs coaches about how much anxiety this is causing in her and the other little girls but I wanted to see if other people's experience is that this is actually an effective strategy.

Depends on the level of gymnastics we are talking about. When my dd was in compulsories we never saw it. Now that we are in optionals, we do see it.

Personally, I don't have an issue with it. But, my situation is with older girls. I feel like it helps the girls who might be struggling with a lack of work ethic! And extra conditioning and reps are only going to help you as a gymnast. But again, we are older and in higher level gymnastics.

I don't see a huge benefit for younger compulsories.

 

[Deleted member 18037]

Depends on the level of gymnastics we are talking about. When my dd was in compulsories we never saw it. Now that we are in optionals, we do see it.

Personally, I don't have an issue with it. But, my situation is with older girls. I feel like it helps the girls who might be struggling with a lack of work ethic! And extra conditioning and reps are only going to help you as a gymnast. But again, we are older and in higher level gymnastics.

I don't see a huge benefit for younger compulsories.

Sure conditioning is good. But if they need more as a group they should just do more. Again, punitive on the girls already doing enough just doesn't sit well.

Gee you exerted a great effort Suzy but Sally is a slacker so guess what Suzy you get to do more. Woo hoo. Nope don't like it.

 

[skschlag]

Sure conditioning is good. But if they need more as a group they should just do more. Again, punitive on the girls already doing enough just doesn't sit well.

Gee you exerted a great effort Suzy but Sally is a slacker so guess what Suzy you get to do more. Woo hoo. Nope don't like it.

Again, I think it depends on the age of the kiddos. Coach used that with the optional boys, and it has been a positive. They are in it together. they help each other get it all done in a good amount of time, and work together to help someone if they are struggling. They are closer as a team after coach did this. Before, they just got mad at the other boy for cheating, and talked amongst themselves. Now, they know that they are a team and they have to help him get his done.

We used to have to do this in basketball. Run suicides, shoot free throws. If the person made it, no running. Miss it, eveyone runs. It was because we were a team. win together, lose together.

I guess it also matters how it is presented.

 

[skschlag]

I should add that the boy in question will do the conditioning for the TEAM that he will not do for himself.

 

[Deleted member 18037]

I guess it really is opinion and perception. Gymnastics really is not a team sport. And I am not talking about the Olympics for instance where all the teams are the same size.

Rather when you have more kids on a team and they take say the top 3 scores for the team score. With say 12 kids odds are that kid who slacks is not hurting anyone but themselves.

I just think there is a difference between positive team building vs punitive. Punitive could actually tear down rather then build.

And with things like being late. I would be rather ticked if my kid was being "punished" because some other kids parent couldn't or wouldn't get them there on time.

We have some weaker kids on our team, I truly have no idea if they have actual physical issues or not. But the stronger kids or issue free kids just shouldn't be punished for a kid who just doesn't do as well.

I guess we will just have to agree to disagree.

 

[profmom]

It's not just about scores. If one kid isn't giving her/his all either at practice or at a meet, it can quickly mess up a group. Likewise, if everyone in the group is working hard and pulling for everyone else to work hard, you create a virtuous circle that lifts everyone from the most talented athletes to the least.

 

[Tigtimes]

"Gymnastics is not really a team sport...."
In terms of the podium perhaps , as for the other 99.9% of the time you may want to revisit your statement when you hit the higher levels.......

 

[Deleted member 18037]

"Gymnastics is not really a team sport...."
In terms of the podium perhaps , as for the other 99.9% of the time you may want to revisit your statement when you hit the higher levels.......

Again, clearly we disagree. Its OK, we just disagree.

By the time you get to the higher levels, the slackers are gone. You don't get to upper levels slacking, cheating on conditioning and on someone else's steam. You are there because you get hard work and dedication.