Parents Consequences

[Deleted member 18037]

Its not a team sport when the goal is to beat everyone including your team mates.

 

[profmom]

In my experience, kids who don't get the team aspect at all have a much tougher time as they move up the levels. A child who cares primarily about beating teammates will find the gym to be a very lonely and alienating place once the skills start getting hard.

 

[skschlag]

Again, clearly we disagree. Its OK, we just disagree.

By the time you get to the higher levels, the slackers are gone. You don't get to upper levels slacking, cheating on conditioning and on someone else's steam. You are there because you get hard work and dedication.

The kid on our team that cheats is a 2nd year level 8. It actually can get worse as they get older!

 

[profmom]

We had a conditioning cheater drop out at L8 last year after an injury.

 

[rjb123]

Maybe gyms portray gymnastics differently, but it is abundantly clear in DD's gym that this IS a team sport. From a very early age/ level the girls are "coached" to cheer for each other, encourage each other, and be a team. It is simply an expectation, a part of the culture of the gym. This is coming from the HC and all of the girls (and families) fall in line (well eventually they seem to! LOL!) No gym is perfect, but I do love this aspect of DD's gym. And it is a highly competitive gym with a large optional team and lots of successful level 10's. So this mentality clearly doesn't make it "weak". For what it is worth, I just asked DD (she's home sick) if gymnastics was a team sport and she said "of course!" I also asked her how that was possible if the goal was to "beat everyone including your team mates". She said "well, that is true I guess, but that is not REALLY the goal mom. Our goal is to be OUR best and to help each other be our best. Sometimes you beat your team mates and sometimes they beat you. But we are a team and we do it together."
As for the punishment thing- I think on occasion they have done it at her gym. It doesn't seem to bother the girls much- DD seems to view these things as a way to get stronger. Also, she just told me that "one person can affect all of us. We all have to be strong." For what it is worth, she is 9/ L7.

 

[Deleted member 18037]

The kid on our team that cheats is a 2nd year level 8. It actually can get worse as they get older!

Probably a contributing factor to why the kid is repeating L8 and of course there are exceptions to the rule. And it remains to be seen if the kid will go further.

In my experience, kids who don't get the team aspect at all have a much tougher time as they move up the levels. A child who cares primarily about beating teammates will find the gym to be a very lonely and alienating place once the skills start getting hard.

Again those kids will eventually be gone.

The kids left are motivated internally and that translates to being competitive and supportive. You shouldn't need to be punitive.

The skills getting harder provides the weeding out. It just a question of where their break point is.

Seriously you think the Olympic team practicing all need to be punished with extra conditioning because one of them bobbles a move in a practice. You think they are not hoping to beat each other and yet wishing each other the best.

Of course you can be a team member and hope for personal success. These things are not mutually exclusive.

Our team roots for each other, supports each other, congratulates each other and you are darn right they want to win individually.

And if our coach was making the other kids do extra moves because Suzy Snowflakes Mom can't get her to practice on time or Suzy Snowflake kept fleeing to the bathroom during conditioning, it wouldn't be right.

 

[skschlag]

He is repeating level 8 because he isn't old enough to go to level 9. That is the only reason

I agree with the tardy thing, although I get irritated that so many are late to practice so it basically delays the start of practice nearly every day as they get started, stop, start over. That is frustrating and unfair to those who are on time.

I think you are jsut seeing it differently, and maybe it is because your little one is still so new to gymnastics. But i know for our team, this has been successful in building that TEAM feeling

 

[cbifoja]

Again, clearly we disagree. Its OK, we just disagree.

By the time you get to the higher levels, the slackers are gone. You don't get to upper levels slacking, cheating on conditioning and on someone else's steam. You are there because you get hard work and dedication.

How can you possibly know this???? I assure you that there are kids who work hard and kids who work not as hard even in the higher levels.

 

[cbifoja]

Probably a contributing factor to why the kid is repeating L8 and of course there are exceptions to the rule. And it remains to be seen if the kid will go further.

Kids repeat upper levels frequently because the skills are HARD, not because they are slackers.

For someone who is still wading through the world of compulsories you sure have some harsh opinions about kids in upper optionals. You might change your tune when your kid starts slowing down because it's harder to flip vaults than to do handstand tree fall. And it's harder to twist than to do a back handspring. And the hardest thing on bars is no longer that silly mill circle.

As the mother of a kid who will probably repeat L8, I find your insinuation that it is probably because she is a slacker to be somewhat offensive. I think I might suggest you take that "walk a mile in their shoes" approach before slapping the lazy label on kids who have to repeat.

Sorry to be so grumpy but your assumptions about why upper optionals repeat jst really rubbed me the wrong way.

 

[bookworm]

I totally disagree with "group" punishments of any kind, any where, any time....if my kid is misbehaving, punish her...if not, leave her alone. The only ones who feel bad are the ones punished for doing nothing...the offender tends to think she "got away with it" if they all got punished so I don't see how that motivates the kid who misbehaves ...and believe me when I say this, this continues into NCAA, where it doesn't "team build" at all, and only builds resentment.

 

[Deleted member 18037]

How can you possibly know this???? I assure you that there are kids who work hard and kids who work not as hard even in the higher levels.

Kids repeat upper levels frequently because the skills are HARD, not because they are slackers.

Which is it?

The kid on our team that cheats is a 2nd year level 8. It actually can get worse as they get older!

My reply about repeating was to the above quote. Which implied the kid was repeating because he was a cheater/slacker, had it also been shared he couldn't advance I would not have quoted it.

 

[Deleted member 18037]

I totally disagree with "group" punishments of any kind, any where, any time....if my kid is misbehaving, punish her...if not, leave her alone. The only ones who feel bad are the ones punished for doing nothing...the offender tends to think she "got away with it" if they all got punished so I don't see how that motivates the kid who misbehaves ...and believe me when I say this, this continues into NCAA, where it doesn't "team build" at all, and only builds resentment.

Agree with bookworm.

And my feelings about won't change whatever level my kid ends up at.

There was an NFL quarterback missed the team plane this weekend. I am pretty sure the whole team wasn't punished. I am guessing he got a nice fine though.

 

[profmom]

Which is it?

My reply about repeating was to the above quote. Which implied the kid was repeating because he was a cheater/slacker, had it also been shared he couldn't advance I would not have quoted it.

No, that's not what Skschlag was implying. Many things influence the number of years a gymnast will spend at L8, work ethic being only one of those things. You misread her post because you don't yet have experience with optional gymnastics. A handful of conditioning cheaters will move on into upper level optionals and may only spend a year in each level. Some very dedicated, hardworking kids who knock themselves out at every practice will -- like my daughter -- spend a second or even a third year at L8. If your DD makes it that far, you will understand better. Wherever a gymnast is on a spectrum ranging from sheer raw natural talent to having to knock her/himself out for every gained skill, it gets hard for anyone who stays in long enough, and in the long run hard work and TEAMWORK are what will keep most of them moving forward and willing to stay in the game. A smart coach will figure out a way to build a team, because that will improve satisfaction, retention, and progress as they move into the higher levels of the sport. And as has been beaten to death in this thread, group conditioning for individual failures can be set up to have this effect in a positive way.

For anyone who believes this is not a team sport, go find the live feed from the recently concluded US men's prelim session. Go to the very end, right after Naddour finishes his PH routine, and watch for 5 more minutes. Or heck, just watch the whole awful rotation and listen to the guys in the background.

 

[skschlag]

so, here's the situation at our gym.

4 optional boys. All are supposed to condition together. One boy cheats, and doesn't complete it all, and walks out early. When asked, the other boys say he didn't do it. Coach says that the team is responsible for each other, calls the boy back in, and makes them do it again, acutally holding each other accountable.

Now, boy does his conditioning because his teammates were mad at him. Teammates help him count and be accountable so they don't have to do more. Sure, tehy were mad at first, but in the end, this boy is finally a part of the team instead of the boys just getting made that he was "getting away with it" (and yes, teh one cheating knows they are getting away with it anyway. But by making everyone do it again, they are all responsible for each other. They have each other's back. And they all know they better not cheat on conditioning!)

I never saw it as punitive and neither did the boys. When I asked DS, his reply was "we are a team. We win and lose as a team. We are stronger as a team. But we have to help each other be a part of the team." And he is 13. Ah. The wisdom of 13 year olds.

So, what would your solution be for a kiddo that skips out on conditioning?

 

[skschlag]

Which is it?



My reply about repeating was to the above quote. Which implied the kid was repeating because he was a cheater/slacker, had it also been shared he couldn't advance I would not have quoted it.

ACtually, I was just letting you know that kiddos still cheat at upper levels.

 

[Deleted member 18037]

For someone who is still wading through the world of compulsories you sure have some harsh opinions about kids in upper optionals. You might change your tune when your kid starts slowing down because it's harder to flip vaults than to do handstand tree fall. And it's harder to twist than to do a back handspring. And the hardest thing on bars is no longer that silly mill circle.

As the mother of a kid who will probably repeat L8, I find your insinuation that it is probably because she is a slacker to be somewhat offensive. I think I might suggest you take that "walk a mile in their shoes" approach before slapping the lazy label on kids who have to repeat.

Sorry to be so grumpy but your assumptions about why upper optionals repeat jst really rubbed me the wrong way.

I am not assuming, you are making assumptions about why I think kids repeat. You assumed that based on one situation quoted I assume all kids who repeat are slacker and therefore you assumed I was calling your child one. And took personal what was not meant to be so.

I think there are many reasons why kids repeat. They don't have skills ready for the next level, usually. The coach wants to stack the deck, sometimes. Gym change. They want to work on a kids confidence. Kid has had an injury. Fear issues, growth spurt they haven't adjusted to yet. And slacking/lack of effort can be one too.

I have no doubt my kid will get to a level where she repeats. I rather expect it to happen again. Because she already has when she changed gyms and got bumped back a level, best thing that ever happened to her. And it was because of a number things including her lack of a consistent mill circle . Our gym just doesn't allow for skipping that silly mill circle, although many gyms do. She didn't get to level 4 last year because she didn't have her kip . She is a much better gymnast today. Is she on track to move up a level next year, probably but won't know until summer and if she doesn't have say her flyaway, nope she won't. And it just so happens she is not a slacker. She a slow and steady kid, it takes her as long as it takes.

I am very aware anything can happen and that this is a long road.

Again, no idea how far she will go, but when she is not putting forth the effort, she will be done, be it L5 or L10.

 

[Deleted member 18037]

So, what would your solution be for a kiddo that skips out on conditioning?

What our gym does.

Make the kid who skips out, keep at it until they do their conditioning. Or when they are doing drills and they have to do something 5x in a row. Kids who do it get to do the fun stuff, working on higher skills in the pit or on the tumble track. If you don't keep at it until you get your five in row. They only person being slowed down is the kid not getting it.

On a personal level you find the individuals currency and work with that.

Just because something worked doesn't mean its the best course of action, long term.

I think getting a bunch of kids mad at another, is not team building. And had it gone on for a long enough time there would not be a positive outcome.

And if a kid doesn't have some internal motivation, the group will not be able to carry the kid indefinitely. You will just have a bunch of pissed off kids.

 

[Deleted member 18037]

ACtually, I was just letting you know that kiddos still cheat at upper levels.

There are slackers at all levels

https://video.search.yahoo.com/sear...=43bb62d395e973ca28632deda3bd6a22&action=view

May fav Allen Iverson talking about practice

 

[skschlag]

What our gym does.

Make the kid who skips out, keep at it until they do their conditioning. Or when they are doing drills and they have to do something 5x in a row. Kids who do it get to do the fun stuff, working on higher skills in the pit or on the tumble track. If you don't keep at it until you get your five in row. They only person being slowed down is the kid not getting it.

On a personal level you find the individuals currency and work with that.

Just because something worked doesn't mean its the best course of action, long term.

I think getting a bunch of kids mad at another, is not team building. And had it gone on for a long enough time there would not be a positive outcome.

And if a kid doesn't have some internal motivation, the group will not be able to carry the kid indefinitely. You will just have a bunch of pissed off kids.

Yeah..our boys are conditioning at 8:30......not staying past 9!

 

[z2akids]

DD's coaches sometimes require the whole team to condition or repeat skills due to one team member. I think they do it because sometimes a girl (including my own) will put more effort in for her friends than for herself. Last week for example, the girls had to each hold a handstand on the beam for x seconds. If anyone fell, they all had to do x pushups and try again. There was no anger at the girl (s) who were unable to hold the handstand (they have all been there before) and they all put forth greater effort because none wanted to let her team down. It isn't an every practice thing, but the girls are a very cohesive team (and are L4, not high optionals and range in age from 8-12). There is one girl who routinely cheats at conditioning and takes a bathroom break nearly every bars session. The coaches have never punished the whole team for her actions. They do have the girls root for her to get through it, but ultimately it is too complicated a situation.

As far as a team sport, I don't think your child has to be a high optional to know how important the team is. Last season, DD scored and placed well at most of her meets. She had a teammate who struggled with her BHS and mill circle. She placed dead last AA at the first 4 or so 5 meets. At the 6th (I think) my DD came in 1st AA (for the first time ever) and yet, when she came to find me after the meet, she didn't care about that at all compared to the fact that her teammate had reached a couple of personal goals and had a 7th place AA finish. The whole team was more excited about thst then anything else individually that meet.

I feel more pride in those girls when they are holding hands on the podium during awards (especially the time that they also held hands with their former teammate) than for any individual accomplishment. Sure, they like to win, but they are really a family and take pride in each other, even when that means their teammate beats them that day.

It is only going to get harder and they are only going to need each others support more as they continue through the levels. And sometimes wanting to do better for each other is what will get them through. And those group consequences reinforce that.