WAG Discussion of abuse in USAG - Nassar

[Flippin'A]

I think the problem in my mind is that the line between a tough coach and an abusive coach just isn't that cut and dry and may not be obvious until the damage is done. This is something I've been contemplating a lot: in the gymnastics world, at what point does it become abuse? I grew up in a gym where conditioning was used as punishment for all manner of things and I know that this practice is still common today. Of course it isn't abusive to make teenagers do a few push ups if they're overly chatty in practice and they know better, but is it abusive to assign five rope climbs every time a girl balks on her beam series when she's clearly dealing with fear issues as I saw a coach do? Maybe it's not abusive the first time it happens, but what if she ends up climbing the rope for essentially the entire practice multiple days in a row with tears streaming down her face as a result? These things aren't obvious, and certainly not to a parent who watches practice on and off.

I don't believe Geddert walked into a gym the first day and threw a girl onto the low bar. His abuse would have progressed over time and may at first have seemed like tough coaching. And as kids progress in the sport both the parents and the gymnasts may have slowly gotten used to his tactics so they eventually seemed normal. I watched this happen under a different coach with similar tactics. Verbal and emotional abuse is even harder to define. How sharp do the words have to be before they become abusive? I don't know and I don't think anyone does because comments that one child can take in their stride might wedge themselves into another's mind forever. One gymnast being asked to weigh herself at every practice might be an annoyance, but for another it might spark a lifetime of struggling with eating disorders.

How can we as parents draw these lines so that we, our gymnasts, and our coaches know with absolute certainty what is and isn't acceptable? I don't blame any of the parents whose children were abused by Nassar, but I still think the parents need to play a real, active role going forward. We all need to do some soul searching to try and answers these questions for ourselves. Because without our tuition and our dues and our meet fees, and our cars driving our kids back and forth to practice, the gymnastics world grinds to a halt. The gymnasts are beginning to realize their power and it's time that we do too.

 

[tomtnt]

True. The quote about jeopardizing daughter's chances at making the Olympic team just rubbed me the wrong way.

I would agree that some parents like the Moceanus are culpable to some extent, but I don’t think you can put the Nichols in that category. Steve Penny told them that it was already reported, FBI was involved and an investigation was underway. They were told further reporting would jeopardize the investigation and at that time with no further knowledge of what had happened at MSU, I’m sure the Nichols believed them and didn’t want to hinder the investigation. I would assume that if I am told by the head of the organization that the FBI is handling it, what other authority would I need to report too? It was only later that they realized that they had been deceived.

 

[funflips]

More at MSU than "this Nassar thing". We used to be State fans. How low can they sink?

Link Removed

 

[bogwoppit]

I think the problem in my mind is that the line between a tough coach and an abusive coach just isn't that cut and dry and may not be obvious until the damage is done. This is something I've been contemplating a lot: in the gymnastics world, at what point does it become abuse? I grew up in a gym where conditioning was used as punishment for all manner of things and I know that this practice is still common today. Of course it isn't abusive to make teenagers do a few push ups if they're overly chatty in practice and they know better, but is it abusive to assign five rope climbs every time a girl balks on her beam series when she's clearly dealing with fear issues as I saw a coach do? Maybe it's not abusive the first time it happens, but what if she ends up climbing the rope for essentially the entire practice multiple days in a row with tears streaming down her face as a result? These things aren't obvious, and certainly not to a parent who watches practice on and off.

I don't believe Geddert walked into a gym the first day and threw a girl onto the low bar. His abuse would have progressed over time and may at first have seemed like tough coaching. And as kids progress in the sport both the parents and the gymnasts may have slowly gotten used to his tactics so they eventually seemed normal. I watched this happen under a different coach with similar tactics. Verbal and emotional abuse is even harder to define. How sharp do the words have to be before they become abusive? I don't know and I don't think anyone does because comments that one child can take in their stride might wedge themselves into another's mind forever. One gymnast being asked to weigh herself at every practice might be an annoyance, but for another it might spark a lifetime of struggling with eating disorders.

How can we as parents draw these lines so that we, our gymnasts, and our coaches know with absolute certainty what is and isn't acceptable? I don't blame any of the parents whose children were abused by Nassar, but I still think the parents need to play a real, active role going forward. We all need to do some soul searching to try and answers these questions for ourselves. Because without our tuition and our dues and our meet fees, and our cars driving our kids back and forth to practice, the gymnastics world grinds to a halt. The gymnasts are beginning to realize their power and it's time that we do too.

If you just start with the obvious stuff. Screaming at gymnasts, pushing or slapping gymnasts. Ignoring gymnasts. Coaches who tell gymnasts they are overweight. Coaches who put their hands where they should never be.

If you just walked away from coaches who did those things you would already be miles ahead.

Then there are the coaches who are just a little mean to some girls, but not to others.

Lets not forget the amazing coaches, who build up their gymnasts, who care about their health and well being. Because those are the ones we should look to to remind us what a real coach should look like.

 

[GymFan96]

So Nastia has posted an announcement on Instagram that her family has donated $20k to Joyful Heart to help sexual abuse victims. Accompanied by a photo of the moment she won gold, of course. She is SO tone-deaf to this entire thing. Now is not the time to highlight your Olympic victory!

Also what does it really say about the Liukins if Nastia was the Athlete Rep while Valeri was allegedly being emotionally/mentally abusive to Ohashi in her family’s own gym! The Liukins seriously need to go! And I used to be a HUGE Nastia fan.

Btw I understand the need for a certain weight in fact I feel that many NCAA girls are dangerously overweight hence so many injuries, but there’s a proper way to approach such a sensitive topic with young girls.

 

[GYM0M]

I do blame the PARENTS, and at this point, not the victims’ parents bc they have enough on their plates, but all of us as a whole for the culture of gymnastics, notice I said gymnastics, not USA gymnastics. This problem of physical and emotional abuse goes much deeper. Think about the Chinese who are ripped away from their parents at a young age and the Karoylis are from Romania!! This is a GLOBAL issue, not NATIONAL. That being said, we the parents have allowed it. Some could even argue that we nurtured it in our vain attempts to get our child that proverbial edge. I believe we all have to start by supporting each other’s children, not seeing others as only competitors, but as young athletes. As far as ME being part of the ‘problem’, I can say that for the most part, I have supported my fellow CB’s and their childrens’ dreams, given them heartfelt advice because the culture of the sport in general is treacherous. I completely get it. I promise....I want change for our ATHLETES, not PR.

 

[Deleted member 18037]

I think the problem in my mind is that the line between a tough coach and an abusive coach just isn't that cut and dry and may not be obvious until the damage is done. This is something I've been contemplating a lot: in the gymnastics world, at what point does it become abuse? I grew up in a gym where conditioning was used as punishment for all manner of things and I know that this practice is still common today. Of course it isn't abusive to make teenagers do a few push ups if they're overly chatty in practice and they know better, but is it abusive to assign five rope climbs every time a girl balks on her beam series when she's clearly dealing with fear issues as I saw a coach do? Maybe it's not abusive the first time it happens, but what if she ends up climbing the rope for essentially the entire practice multiple days in a row with tears streaming down her face as a result? These things aren't obvious, and certainly not to a parent who watches practice on and off.

I don't believe Geddert walked into a gym the first day and threw a girl onto the low bar. His abuse would have progressed over time and may at first have seemed like tough coaching. And as kids progress in the sport both the parents and the gymnasts may have slowly gotten used to his tactics so they eventually seemed normal. I watched this happen under a different coach with similar tactics. Verbal and emotional abuse is even harder to define. How sharp do the words have to be before they become abusive? I don't know and I don't think anyone does because comments that one child can take in their stride might wedge themselves into another's mind forever. One gymnast being asked to weigh herself at every practice might be an annoyance, but for another it might spark a lifetime of struggling with eating disorders.

How can we as parents draw these lines so that we, our gymnasts, and our coaches know with absolute certainty what is and isn't acceptable? I don't blame any of the parents whose children were abused by Nassar, but I still think the parents need to play a real, active role going forward. We all need to do some soul searching to try and answers these questions for ourselves. Because without our tuition and our dues and our meet fees, and our cars driving our kids back and forth to practice, the gymnastics world grinds to a halt. The gymnasts are beginning to realize their power and it's time that we do too.

Yes that’s how abusers work. It’s called gaslighting

If you could always see them coming they wouldn’t get away with it.

But at some point you know. As a parent you know. My ex was abusive. The people who cared about me knew it. Difference was I was an adult not much they could do. If I was a kid I would hope some one would od intervened..

And at some point it is very cut and dry. My kid is miserable most of the time that’s a problem

 

[Midwestmommy]

I just listened to Mattie’s testimony.

It was one of the most heartbreaking things I have ever heard.

HOW DARE those sick adults treat a child that way after a competition . And all the rest of it...

Utterly disgusting to treat a child that way. God gave them the sacred honor of holding the wellbeing of a precious child in their hands and they treated her like dirt. Over and over. This is beyond sick, and the stink of this culture runs deep.

The Liukins and others involved need to move on, this is repulsive. OUT!! OUT!! They had their big chances and in their arrogance failed to comprehend what an honor it was and how big their duty was to respect these kids and all the kids in gymnastics as people and safeguard their welfare.

Disgusting.

 

[wandrewsjr]

I just listened to Mattie’s testimony.

It was one of the most heartbreaking things I have ever heard.

HOW DARE those sick adults treat a child that way after a competition . And all the rest of it...

Utterly disgusting to treat a child that way. God gave them the sacred honor of holding the wellbeing of a precious child in their hands and they treated her like dirt. Over and over. This is beyond sick, and the stink of this culture runs deep..

Mihai Bretyan(Sacramone and Raisman's coach) was the head coach of that Worlds team, Jiani Wu(Caquatto's coach) the assistant coach.

 

[tomtnt]

and in retrospect, what difference does it all make? it's a kids' sport - no one died when she fell. no one lost their job. in hindsight, no one cares or remembers except for this poor girl.

I just listened to Mattie’s testimony.

It was one of the most heartbreaking things I have ever heard.

HOW DARE those sick adults treat a child that way after a competition . And all the rest of it...

Utterly disgusting to treat a child that way. God gave them the sacred honor of holding the wellbeing of a precious child in their hands and they treated her like dirt. Over and over. This is beyond sick, and the stink of this culture runs deep.

The Liukins and others involved need to move on, this is repulsive. OUT!! OUT!! They had their big chances and in their arrogance failed to comprehend what an honor it was and how big their duty was to respect these kids and all the kids in gymnastics as people and safeguard their welfare.

Disgusting.

 

[sce]

The NCAA is stepping in to investigate now too: Link Removed

 

[Fijiwater]

Mihai Bretyan(Sacramone and Raisman's coach) was the head coach of that Worlds team, Jiani Wu(Caquatto's coach) the assistant coach.

#Truth

 

[gymdog]

Btw I understand the need for a certain weight in fact I feel that many NCAA girls are dangerously overweight hence so many injuries, but there’s a proper way to approach such a sensitive topic with young girls.

What qualification do you have to decide who's "dangerously overweight"? Are you their doctor or nutritionist because it's odd that a professional would take to the Internet with their client's info.

 

[GymFan96]

What qualification do you have to decide who's "dangerously overweight"? Are you their doctor or nutritionist because it's odd that a professional would take to the Internet with their client's info.

Sorry I worded it badly, I just meant I realize maintaining a certain weight is a reality of sports. But Valeri’s tactics such as overheating in a sweatsuit, or pressuring people to starve themselves are all wrong.

 

[gymisforeveryone]

I do blame the PARENTS, and at this point, not the victims’ parents bc they have enough on their plates, but all of us as a whole for the culture of gymnastics, notice I said gymnastics, not USA gymnastics. This problem of physical and emotional abuse goes much deeper. Think about the Chinese who are ripped away from their parents at a young age and the Karoylis are from Romania!! This is a GLOBAL issue, not NATIONAL. That being said, we the parents have allowed it. Some could even argue that we nurtured it in our vain attempts to get our child that proverbial edge. I believe we all have to start by supporting each other’s children, not seeing others as only competitors, but as young athletes. As far as ME being part of the ‘problem’, I can say that for the most part, I have supported my fellow CB’s and their childrens’ dreams, given them heartfelt advice because the culture of the sport in general is treacherous. I completely get it. I promise....I want change for our ATHLETES, not PR.

Yes, this is definitely a global issue. We have the same gymnastics culture here in Europe. It seems to be universal, there are abusive coaches everywhere. I coached in a club that had a mentally abusive head coach (she didn't coach my girls though) and many people including I reported her many times to the club board. It took them years to fire her. Now that she got fired she started her own club.... It's sickening that the local newspapers are writing about the new club that opened, interviewing the coach and only telling about her high level of knowledge in gymnastics, her achievements etc not knowing about her real character. I hope that eventually the word goes around about her past.

We have coaches like her in most of the clubs in this country. And the culture is protective to the abusive coaches and the club boards, parents and other coaches seem to allow it. It is seen as part of the sport.

We have not had sexually of physically abusive coaches as far as I know, and every coach needs to go through the background checking, but I think that the mental abuse is just as bad. I hope that more coaches and parents reported those coaches to the club boards. Thank God my current club is awesome and all the coaches are great people who truly care about the kids and their well being.

 

[Taxidriver]

I think the problem in my mind is that the line between a tough coach and an abusive coach just isn't that cut and dry and may not be obvious until the damage is done. This is something I've been contemplating a lot: in the gymnastics world, at what point does it become abuse? I grew up in a gym where conditioning was used as punishment for all manner of things and I know that this practice is still common today. Of course it isn't abusive to make teenagers do a few push ups if they're overly chatty in practice and they know better, but is it abusive to assign five rope climbs every time a girl balks on her beam series when she's clearly dealing with fear issues as I saw a coach do? Maybe it's not abusive the first time it happens, but what if she ends up climbing the rope for essentially the entire practice multiple days in a row with tears streaming down her face as a result? These things aren't obvious, and certainly not to a parent who watches practice on and off.

I don't believe Geddert walked into a gym the first day and threw a girl onto the low bar. His abuse would have progressed over time and may at first have seemed like tough coaching. And as kids progress in the sport both the parents and the gymnasts may have slowly gotten used to his tactics so they eventually seemed normal. I watched this happen under a different coach with similar tactics. Verbal and emotional abuse is even harder to define. How sharp do the words have to be before they become abusive? I don't know and I don't think anyone does because comments that one child can take in their stride might wedge themselves into another's mind forever. One gymnast being asked to weigh herself at every practice might be an annoyance, but for another it might spark a lifetime of struggling with eating disorders.

How can we as parents draw these lines so that we, our gymnasts, and our coaches know with absolute certainty what is and isn't acceptable? I don't blame any of the parents whose children were abused by Nassar, but I still think the parents need to play a real, active role going forward. We all need to do some soul searching to try and answers these questions for ourselves. Because without our tuition and our dues and our meet fees, and our cars driving our kids back and forth to practice, the gymnastics world grinds to a halt. The gymnasts are beginning to realize their power and it's time that we do too.

I describe my dd coaches as tough but I’m starting to wonder if that’s the wrong word as they are strict and have high expectations and praise isn’t given often but does get given but they never humiliate and don’t punish for missed skills or mistakes, for messing around or not listening yes they would get in trouble and might even be made to sit out.

As I said in another post if I wouldn’t find it acceptable for a friend, family member, teacher or anyone else to treat my dd in a particular way why should it be acceptable for a gym coach.
Yet I’ve had conversations with parents from other gyms who when I’ve said would you let you childs school teacher talk to them like that their response is ‘no of course I wouldn’t but that is different’ but it shouldn’t be any different.
What I’ve read over the last few days has made me question should I pull my dd out of gymnastics, not due to her coaches but due to the culture that is within gymnastics as it’s not just the USA who has problems and neither is it just gymnastics but many other sports. I’ve decided to let her stay for now she loves the sport and I’m trying to remind myself of the positives of the sport like hard work and dedication (but not at all costs), perseverance, confidence, learning to fight your fear and by this I mean getting up on the beam and doing a bhs or bw etc.

 

[Midwestmommy]

This culture of careless mistreatment of children needs to stop. No more excuses.

Just as how you treat the mail room employee says much more about your true character than how you treat the CEO...

How a coach treats the kid who struggles or makes a mistake says much more about their character than how they treat a star performer that day.

Since we are doing hash tagging..

#ENOUGH
#KIDSARENTYOURROBOTS
#STOPTHEABUSE
#CHILDRENMATTER
#HEARTHEIRVOICES
#TIMEFORCUBSTOROAR

 

[aerials]

More at MSU than "this Nassar thing". We used to be State fans. How low can they sink?

Link Removed

Wow

Joel Ferguson: 'This is not Penn State. They were dealing with their football program.'

 

[2gymkids]

The thing is, even over on the parent board under the "how do we change this?" thread, the comment is made that "some parents feel like they don't have a choice" because of limited gym choices in the area. This is mind-blowing to me. Don't have a choice? The choice can be for your kid not to do gymnastics. It'S GYMNASTICS. The world will not end if you choose your child's well-being and they don't get to do it. So, while I absolutely don't hold these parents accountable in these horrific stories, parental and societal attitudes have GOT to change. There is ALWAYS a choice to take your kid out of an abusive environment, even if it means the end of their dream.

 

[amiandjim]

Wow

Joel Ferguson: 'This is not Penn State. They were dealing with their football program.'

I love the fact that the NCAA just came out and opened an investigation! He actually laughed when he was asked if he was worried they would investigate! I hope they all go down in flames!