WAG Does USAG compulsory text and exemplar video lead Righties to Right-hurdle RO?

[Jenny]

If we're talking about young kids that haven't been doing back walkovers for years, although they may not naturally put the opposite foot in front the first time they're asked to do the skill, that foot may feel completely natural after doing it a few times. There are always exceptions, and I think it's important, as a coach, to be flexible, but it would nice to have an 'optimal' model to begin with.



Cartwheels, back walkovers and back handsprings would land in the same lunge. For front walkovers, I really don't think the lunge position applies. Optimally, you'd land with all your weight on the back leg holding the front leg up, or at least with very little weight on the front leg.

We may just have to respectfully agree to disagree on this one

but BWO don't always lunge either? In our grades they go to toes on both legs. And they used to go to arabesque. So still all the weight on opposite legs.

The biggest problem with your optimal model is that is doesn't suit all children or all gymnastics systems and it definitely doesn't fit most world and olympic gymnasts so why bother? Lot of effort and struggle. It might well suit your gymnastics system in Canada and that might make it 'optimal ' in your country but the same cannot be said for elsewhere. I think the word 'optimal' needs to be relative to the system you work to in your country.

Having flexibility as a coach is far more important than having a rigid model that you try and shoehorn every one into. Especially for the sake of an elite beam series.

 

[CanAmGymMum]

I'm in the USA. And we do have a rigid model- the compulsory system. It forces everyone to do everything right or everything left. My question is, is this optimal for future development?

How flexible are your grades regarding a gymnast's dominant side?

 

[Deleted member D3987]

Everyone needs help "coaching" 3 year olds. If nothing else, that is what I hope to convey here

A set up wherein one is a given a single preprinted cartwheel mat and five 3 year olds would be pure comedy.

and needs a lot of advil...for the coach's headache...lol

 

[gymdog]

Why not?

Why not keep all the doors open to facilitate combining skills at the optional level? Cartwheel back walkover, cartwheel back handspring, cartwheel onodi, aerial layout stepout, back handspring stepout to onodi.....and the list goes on for skills that would be much easier if taught with this in mind.

Also, we're always landing with the same foot in front for a lunge, reinforcing that position. And, the same leg is always kicking over first in every skill (right cartwheel: left leg kicks over, left back walkover: left leg kicks over). So, how are we defining dominant leg?

Some of these different combinations are level 7 skills, so not just applicable to those who are elite. The variety that this would allow would be refreshing as well

Yeah but if you do an aerial into a back handspring step out, usually if you're a righty you would take off with your leg in front and then step down on your right foot which is perfectly fine to do. I've never seen anyone do anything other than that, as a matter of fact. The basis for the more flexible side is neurological and although we do our best I don't think it is optimal to override that. You just work on the bad side as much as possible.

Also I'm not sure why using your non dominant foot would matter for most of those series. Back handspring to onodi? That would be a normal back handspring then punch into a half turn to forward step out, I suppose that goes back into the twisting example really as to how easy it would be do that on the beam as a righty who twists right. Obviously it's easier for a righty who twists left but it also really doesn't get you anywhere in most levels because there's no salto and a back handspring isn't worth much. A righty who twists right could do a cartwheel onodi for pretty much the same value and then it would be easier because you step down left out of the cartwheel, or an aerial onodi which then you might be talking as far as value.

But most people don't connect things to onodis because it's ridiculously hard, especially if you're not flexible, not because of dominant leg issues.

It is best to just work all basics on both sides, which is basically what any program worth their salt ALREADY does. Even from preteam. And still if you work the basics both sides, there is a neurological preference in flexibility and efficiency for one side in most people.

Here's an example of a left aerial, left BHS step down:

 

[gymdog]

Here is an example of a right BHS step down into a left twist right aerial onodi (left leg landing). Cool attempt.

 

[gymdog]

I'm in the USA. And we do have a rigid model- the compulsory system. It forces everyone to do everything right or everything left.

Not really. There is an asterisk next to every acrobatic major element which means that element can be reversed. The only major elements that can't be reversed are leaps, jumps, and turns, since the dance part of the text is supposed to be done on one foot (otherwise it would be a nightmare). That seems fair enough to me. I don't currently have any children who have any need to reverse elements, which is fine with me. If you want to do a right routine with a left back walkover, you're free to do so. If you want to do that in level 4 routine, you step right and point left instead of brushing the right leg through. In the old routines the kids had to take an additional step back because they did their walkover after the leg swing half turn to arabesque.

 

[Deleted member D3987]

Yeah but if you do an aerial into a back handspring step out, usually if you're a righty you would take off with your leg in front and then step down on your right foot which is perfectly fine to do. I've never seen anyone do anything other than that, as a matter of fact. The basis for the more flexible side is neurological and although we do our best I don't think it is optimal to override that. You just work on the bad side as much as possible.

Also I'm not sure why using your non dominant foot would matter for most of those series. Back handspring to onodi? That would be a normal back handspring then punch into a half turn to forward step out, I suppose that goes back into the twisting example really as to how easy it would be do that on the beam as a righty who twists right. Obviously it's easier for a righty who twists left but it also really doesn't get you anywhere in most levels because there's no salto and a back handspring isn't worth much. A righty who twists right could do a cartwheel onodi for pretty much the same value and then it would be easier because you step down left out of the cartwheel, or an aerial onodi which then you might be talking as far as value.

But most people don't connect things to onodis because it's ridiculously hard, especially if you're not flexible, not because of dominant leg issues.

It is best to just work all basics on both sides, which is basically what any program worth their salt ALREADY does. Even from preteam. And still if you work the basics both sides, there is a neurological preference in flexibility and efficiency for one side in most people.

Here's an example of a left aerial, left BHS step down:

in fact, that is precisely what this athlete is doing. she lands her aerial with her right foot forward and left foot back. this means that she should flip flop step out with her right foot forward. instead, she switches to her left foot.

and i have been at this so long...i've seen left forward on the aerial. then LEFT landing instead of right. so, a switch leg aerial. i've seen a lot of things that cause me to shake my head in just how talented some kids are.

let me point out that i have seen aerial cartwheel starting with the left foot forward to landing on the right foot forward>then left foot back>then switch leg flip flop landing with the left foot forward to step out>then RIGHT foot step down on the layout!

why? who knows...only her hairdresser could know for sure...

 

[Deleted member D3987]

Here is an example of a right BHS step down into a left twist right aerial onodi (left leg landing). Cool attempt.

gymdog, i must point out. she performs a one arm flip flop on her right hand. she should turn left in to the Onodi aerial walk over. for you parents, in an Onodi you place your hands down. she clearly does an aerial walk over.

next, what makes THAT so damn hard is that she is twisting right on her right leg and then attempting to land on her left leg out of the aerial walk over. i can't tell you all how impossibly hard this is and i doubt that this gymnast will learn it. she would have a better chance if she did that 1 arm back handspring on her left arm to counter (borrow) balance some of the weight. or twist left and then land left.

 

[Jenny]

I'm in the USA. And we do have a rigid model- the compulsory system. It forces everyone to do everything right or everything left. My question is, is this optimal for future development?

How flexible are your grades regarding a gymnast's dominant side?

Nobody cares what your dominant side is here. Most of our routines are voluntary. Once a year girls can compete grades which have set moves but no requirement for each move to be on same leg. Some of the series might require you to do certain moves on the same leg to make them connect but either leg would be fine.

I think even in your compulsory system you can reverse parts of the text so it might be more flexible than you think.

Is any system optimal? Only until it is surpassed by a more optimal system LOL. Everything shifts and changes. Not worth getting too invested in one theory. It doesn't seem to bother Simone Biles to round off and layout step out on the same leg. Like Dunno says Kids do amazing things. As long as basics are worked on both sides, go with the flow.

 

[CanAmGymMum]

I agree that there's not a one size fits all system. However, I stand by my point that for many young kids, it wouldn't be a big deal to learn the back walkover, back handspring stepout, etc. starting with the non-dominant foot in front. And then, there wouldn't be a need to make so many crazy modifications to make these combinations possible.

I wouldn't force this on an athlete if it's clearly not working. But, I think most of us would agree that, as coaches, we can't always totally go with the flow. Most of us would want to establish some sort of pattern, whatever that may be, to develop some consistency. For example, front and back twisting should be performed in the same direction. This doesn't always happen naturally, at first.

 

[gymdog]

gymdog, i must point out. she performs a one arm flip flop on her right hand. she should turn left in to the Onodi aerial walk over. for you parents, in an Onodi you place your hands down. she clearly does an aerial walk over.

next, what makes THAT so damn hard is that she is twisting right on her right leg and then attempting to land on her left leg out of the aerial walk over. i can't tell you all how impossibly hard this is and i doubt that this gymnast will learn it. she would have a better chance if she did that 1 arm back handspring on her left arm to counter (borrow) balance some of the weight. or twist left and then land left.

I agree, but, I assume she was injured or something on her left arm and thus why she would be playing with that. I doubt she ever "got" it at least, to my knowledge (and this is Mike Durante's kid, maybe he reads this, not that I know of) she never competed this. Still cool. Most gymnasts who successfully perform one arm back handspring step outs use their non dominant hand (left hand for a right step out).

 

[gymdog]

I agree that there's not a one size fits all system. However, I stand by my point that for many young kids, it wouldn't be a big deal to learn the back walkover, back handspring stepout, etc. starting with the non-dominant foot in front. And then, there wouldn't be a need to make so many crazy modifications to make these combinations possible.
.

Maybe, personally I don't think crazy modifications are happening. A switch leg aerial seems crazy to me, but landing left, taking off, and stepping down right? Not so much, that's pretty fine. Personally I would prefer that to taking off a left back handspring into a layout. I think the point is kids will make up any modification in order to use their dominant sides which seems to indicate the need to use the neurologically based dominant side is strong.

I am not a neurologist, I cannot really comment on much more than I observe, but I observe that the tendency is strong in most people. A small percentage of people are relatively ambidextrous. Following the theory of some on here, it would seem this would confer a special advantage in gymnastics but appears to have no special advantage from my own observations and if anything causes problems in seamlessly learning some things.

For example, I was told by some cheerleaders it would be hard for me to twist out of a right round off or do a cartwheel step in tuck full. Maybe for cheerleaders, I can easily do a right round off left full and it does not feel "weird" to me. I had never done a cartwheel tuck full but I did it fine to show them. it would be harder obviously to do a right round off left triple full, but thankfully I'm not nearly talented enough to have those kinds of concerns, lol.

 

[Seeker]

Maybe, personally I don't think crazy modifications are happening. A switch leg aerial seems crazy to me, but landing left, taking off, and stepping down right? Not so much, that's pretty fine. Personally I would prefer that to taking off a left back handspring into a layout. I think the point is kids will make up any modification in order to use their dominant sides which seems to indicate the need to use the neurologically based dominant side is strong.

I totally agree with this -- I haven't witnessed any crazy modifications happening either. I think the allowances to reverse most major skills accommodate most gymnasts quite well.

And as a "lefty", I can tell you that the neuro preference/tendency is quite strong. I couldn't turn myself into a "righty" no matter how hard I tried. I may be able to be functional, but those skills that I perform without thinking now would require much thought and concentration. Try using your mouse with the opposite hand...it doesn't feel right. Doesn't mean I couldn't do it, but I will never be as quick, accurate and efficient with that hand. I think the same would apply here. But I'm not a neurologist either.

 

[Deleted member D3987]

here is another consideration of human movement. you will note that all of them are right handed as they carry their pole to the right side. they all twist left over the pole. and they all take off their left foot.

this was something i researched years ago. i asked these guys (not all of them but many in my travels to World events) which way they cartwheeled if they could. they all answered and showed me left cartwheels. of course left cartwheel is right twist. but they all twisted left over the pole.

now try to follow. when gymnasts conventional vault, and they take off their left foot to the board and their right foot pushes off behind, these kids almost always will left cartwheel/round off. right foot push and left foot forward. just like these pole vaulters.

and when the same kids Yurchenko, they will push off their right foot twice (the skip in the hurdle) and lead with their left foot to left round off.

some of things are universal country to country. simply amazing the similarities in human beings from sport to sport. just something to observe and think about.

you will see Latvai from Finland who is left handed do the opposite. and i know that she did a round off to the right because she was a gymnast before she crossed over to track.

and you will see the men do the same.

 

[gymdog]

So, I'm confused by the mention of diving earlier or maybe that was another thread, anyway does anyone know what the technique is there? When I did diving, although the hurdle style is a little different than anything in gymnastics (more like how you would bounce to gain height on a trampoline) I still pushed off my left foot and led with my right foot (a right hurdle) as in what we see above (although in pole vaulting they don't finish the hurdle in an assemble movement like in gymnastics and diving, for obvious reasons). Then in diving your right foot comes down. Gymnastics it is a little different but same idea. Granted, I didn't really do a high level of diving, I'm pretty sure the coaches were teenagers or something. Nobody really instructed me that I can recall, I just observed and filled in the blanks since I had been doing gymnastics from a younger age. So this could have been incorrect, but it strikes me as likely what most people do.

 

[ginnymac]

My dd, former gymnast turned diver:

Round off hurdle right in front
Diving hurdle right knee up
Diving twisting direction right-for forward and backward twisting.

Twisting is actually a strength for her in both directions.

 

[cbifoja]

So what is your PhD in, Alyssa? Do you feel this has helped with your coaching?

Hi @Alyssa S. you 'liked' my post but didn't answer. What is your PhD in? I'm very curious because you mentioned it a few times in another thread.

You still haven't answered the multiple questions upthread regarding what your area of PhD study is in (last asked by COz just above), gymdog's question about if you coach 3yr olds



and a seeming general avoidance of providing any background or perspective

I'm very eager to know what your PhD is in, as are I'm sure lots of other people here who might benefit from your knowledge. Are you currently coaching?

Did I miss the answer to these questions.

I've been reading this thread, fascinated by the depth of passion of so many people wanting to understand what those of us on the outside consider such a minor part of gymnastics.

I'm already pretty familiar with the credential/credibility of most of the posters in this thread, but I'm wondering if I missed a post somewhere that would help me lend credibility to some of our newer members.

 

[gymmomx2]

Honestly I don't understand why some people are so interested in Alyssa's Ph.D. Has she made any claims that her Ph.D. was relevant to coaching?

 

[CanAmGymMum]

Interesting stuff. Does anyone remember figure skater, Oksana Baiul colliding with the German skater during warm ups at the 1994 Olympic Games? I remember at the time, a big deal was made of the fact that she was the only right twister on the ice so she had to skate against the flow of traffic. I don't know much about figure skating but I believe all left twisting jumps land on the right leg? Presumably, the landing leg would be most skater's dominant leg. It is my understanding that most figure skaters are left twisters.

 

[COz]

Honestly I don't understand why some people are so interested in Alyssa's Ph.D. Has she made any claims that her Ph.D. was relevant to coaching?

By "some people" I assume you mean me

I was interested because Alyssa made a few comments about how her and her husband's higher degrees had helped with something or rather.
She also (in my interpretation) accused Dunno of making up research and said she couldn't find any published work on whatever area was being discussed, which implied at least a familiarity with the area.
The above interactions and her references to her qualifications made me think that it would perhaps help us understand her background.

Alyssa did say that she had a 'dry land' training facility(?) for diving in her basement or something and had coached diving at an international level. Or was that her husband? Or am I now confusing posters? I don't know, it's all very confusing.

Someone arguing about research, techniques and questioning the qualifications of others should at least be prepared to disclose their own qualifications.

But hey, it doesn't matter what I think. I don't even own a trampoline!