WAG Does USAG compulsory text and exemplar video lead Righties to Right-hurdle RO?

[Jenny]

What is your opinion @Alyssa S. Do you think it is optimal. And if you do , do you think it essential to make a switch to the side children use or do you think just live with what comes?

 

[Alyssa S.]

What is your opinion @Alyssa S. Do you think it is optimal. And if you do , do you think it essential to make a switch to the side children use or do you think just live with what comes?

Personally, I am in a learning mode. I want to understand.

I think, for most athletes, it will make a huge difference to help each one to identify the optimal roundoff, and the optimal twist. I think research with peer-reviewed publication is ripe, if it doesn't exist. And I think the topic should be a significant portion of coaching certification.

In a nutshell.

 

[COz]

So what is your PhD in, Alyssa? Do you feel this has helped with your coaching?

 

[COz]

Hi @Alyssa S. you 'liked' my post but didn't answer. What is your PhD in? I'm very curious because you mentioned it a few times in another thread.

 

[Seeker]

Personally, I am in a learning mode. I want to understand.

I think, for most athletes, it will make a huge difference to help each one to identify the optimal roundoff, and the optimal twist. I think research with peer-reviewed publication is ripe, if it doesn't exist. And I think the topic should be a significant portion of coaching certification.

In a nutshell.

Why do you care about this so much? Are we part of some research project? And, while your approach has improved since the first thread you posted in, I still find your "tone" pretty condescending and belittling. Maybe it's me and the way I'm reading it, but I hope you appreciate all of the good information you've collected and the willingness of both parents and coaches here to engage in dialogue with you even though your initial approach was quite disrespectful.

 

[CanAmGymMum]

So, in a perfect world, our athletes would be:

Right: twist, cartwheel, roundoff, handstand, aerial, front ariel, full turn
Left: back walkover, back handspring stepout, layout stepout

Or, vice versa

If this is the "best" scenario, it's too bad everyone can't get on the same page and suggest this as the preferred way, starting in our compulsory routines. In my experience, in the USA, everything is taught right or everything is taught left, most likely for the purpose of the compulsory routines.

Of course, there are always going to be variations. However, I do feel like many of our athletes are being coached to do everything right or everything left. However, irrespective of whether gymnasts are righties or lefties, I would say that most are allowed to twist in whichever direction they feel comfortable, when the time comes.

 

[Amusibus]

This is getting interesting... @Seeker, I don't see Alyssa being disrespectful etc except maybe one reply further up this thread. Seems like she has more of an academic approach to the question at hand, and what's wrong with having a deep interest in a specific topic? This is the kind of thinking specialists in many areas do, detailed, specific, trying to turn theoretic to concrete, provable hypotheses.

 

[Seeker]

This is getting interesting... @Seeker, I don't see Alyssa being disrespectful etc except maybe one reply further up this thread. Seems like she has more of an academic approach to the question at hand, and what's wrong with having a deep interest in a specific topic? This is the kind of thinking specialists in many areas do, detailed, specific, trying to turn theoretic to concrete, provable hypotheses.

Like I said -- maybe its my reading of it. I thought her response up thread to gymdog -- who clearly represents as a competent and experienced coach -- was rude/flippant (asking her if she needed help coaching 3yr olds). She was also extremely rude to dunno in another thread. Using a smiley doesn't really help after that....her "tone" was established then.

 

[Alyssa S.]

Thank you for asking. I education off the radar

Like I said -- maybe its my reading of it. I thought her response up thread to gymdog -- who clearly represents as a competent and experienced coach -- was rude/flippant (asking her if she needed help coaching 3yr olds). She was also extremely rude to dunno in another thread. Using a smiley doesn't really help after that....her "tone" was established then.

I don't find your accusations fair (or even credible without seriously twisting the sequence of exchanges). I am interested in truth, without much concern for egos. I don't plan to defend myself again.

Please try to stay focused on your contribution to or learning from our different perspectives.

 

[gymdog]

Like I said -- maybe its my reading of it. I thought her response up thread to gymdog -- who clearly represents as a competent and experienced coach -- was rude/flippant (asking her if she needed help coaching 3yr olds). She was also extremely rude to dunno in another thread. Using a smiley doesn't really help after that....her "tone" was established then.

Everyone needs help "coaching" 3 year olds. If nothing else, that is what I hope to convey here

A set up wherein one is a given a single preprinted cartwheel mat and five 3 year olds would be pure comedy.

 

[Seeker]

Thank you for asking. I education off the radar

I don't find your accusations fair (or even credible without seriously twisting the sequence of exchanges). I am interested in truth, without much concern for egos. I don't plan to defend myself again.

Please try to stay focused on your contribution to or learning from our different perspectives.

I'm quite focused and I have been here for a very long time with no problems whatsoever. As I said in my post --this is my perception based on interactions here over the past few days. You still haven't answered the multiple questions upthread regarding what your area of PhD study is in (last asked by COz just above), gymdog's question about if you coach 3yr olds

No, I'm really curious. Do you teach gymnastics to 3 year olds?

and a seeming general avoidance of providing any background or perspective that makes it more understandable why you've come on here like gangbusters and played the 20-questions game. Maybe it's all innocent and in the spirit of seeking knowledge, but admittedly, I find it quite odd. If personal communication style has anything to do with acceptance and success in your quest for knowledge, I think you'd be much more successful with honey than vinegar. You certainly didn't start out on great footing by insulting longstanding respected members of the community. Just makes one go hmmmmmm.

 

[COz]

Thank you for asking. I education off the radar

Sorry, I don't understand what this means. Was this an autocorrect error?

I'm very eager to know what your PhD is in, as are I'm sure lots of other people here who might benefit from your knowledge. Are you currently coaching?

 

[Jenny]

So, in a perfect world, our athletes would be:

Right: twist, cartwheel, roundoff, handstand, aerial, front ariel, full turn
Left: back walkover, back handspring stepout, layout stepout

Or, vice versa

If this is the "best" scenario, it's too bad everyone can't get on the same page and suggest this as the preferred way, starting in our compulsory routines. In my experience, in the USA, everything is taught right or everything is taught left, most likely for the purpose of the compulsory routines.

Of course, there are always going to be variations. However, I do feel like many of our athletes are being coached to do everything right or everything left. However, irrespective of whether gymnasts are righties or lefties, I would say that most are allowed to twist in whichever direction they feel comfortable, when the time comes.[/QUOT


Actually I think there was a suggestion earlier that if you round off right you should twist left. There is so much disagreement about this, I don.t think you can "get on the same page". As there isn't one!

I see the advantage of leading with one leg forwards and the other backwards (as you suggested above). In that it allows free CW, free walkover, layout on beam. It aid s twisting split jumps and leaps (although doesn't seem to stop gymnasts who seem to manage fine). And it should make round off twist dismounts off beam more comfortable. However it doesn't seem to stop gymnasts twisting off beam and at elite level double backs and more seem to come into play anyway .

So really even if that was the 'best' scenario is it worth pushing for it with all those thousands of itty bitties who start in gymnastics at 5, just in case one of them reaches a level where they might want to do one of the skills above. 2 of which can be managed either way anyway. Kids should split leap on both legs anyway so that knocks out that issue.

So really it boils down to one single beam series........ Worth it. NOT!

And The question of changing a round off to suit the natural twist direction (whichever way you think that may be). Maybe the question should be, is is better to change the twist direction to suit the round off direction? Given that by the time they twist the round off should be strong and engrained by then?

 

[CanAmGymMum]

So really even if that was the 'best' scenario is it worth pushing for it with all those thousands of itty bitties who start in gymnastics at 5, just in case one of them reaches a level where they might want to do one of the skills above. 2 of which can be managed either way anyway. Kids should split leap on both legs anyway so that knocks out that issue.

I think, in the young ones, it is worth considering, if they're on track to be in a team program. All that is really being asked is that the back walkover be taught with the opposite leg in front than what they cartwheel with. Since bridging isn't encouraged for young kids, chances are, these young ones don't have much experience with back walkovers and we would be teaching them from scratch. Most gyms train both sides equally, in terms of flexibility, so, except for in extreme cases, I think the difference in flexibility from side to side would be negligible. Whichever leg they repeatedly practice will be the one that feels most natural, in most cases. The back handspring stepout and the layout stepout would logically be done with the same leg as the back walkover.

And The question of changing a round off to suit the natural twist direction (whichever way you think that may be). Maybe the question should be, is is better to change the twist direction to suit the round off direction? Given that by the time they twist the round off should be strong and engrained by then?

It is not wise to mess with twisting direction. Nor is it wise to change the roundoff once an athlete has been doing it long enough that she's ready to start twisting. This is where we allow for individual variations.

 

[gymdog]

All that is really being asked is that the back walkover be taught with the opposite leg in front than what they cartwheel with.

Why?

 

[CanAmGymMum]

Why not?

Why not keep all the doors open to facilitate combining skills at the optional level? Cartwheel back walkover, cartwheel back handspring, cartwheel onodi, aerial layout stepout, back handspring stepout to onodi.....and the list goes on for skills that would be much easier if taught with this in mind.

Also, we're always landing with the same foot in front for a lunge, reinforcing that position. And, the same leg is always kicking over first in every skill (right cartwheel: left leg kicks over, left back walkover: left leg kicks over). So, how are we defining dominant leg?

Some of these different combinations are level 7 skills, so not just applicable to those who are elite. The variety that this would allow would be refreshing as well

 

[Jenny]

Why not?

Because it is not natural to the children concerned. And not that important except to some beam series that 99.99 % of children starting gym will never even learn the names of let alone learn.

And despite what you say a lot of children in the US are BWO and bridging and BHS well before 6.

 

[Jenny]

Why not?



Also, we're always landing with the same foot in front for a lunge, reinforcing that position. And, the same leg is always kicking over first in every skill (right cartwheel: left leg kicks over, left back walkover: left leg kicks over). So, how are we defining dominant leg?

not true - you would be landing/lunging on opposite leg front and back walkover and also landing on an opposite leg for split leap and BWO.

You would be 'kicking over' with the same leg on those skills mentioned above but to me you kick/lift with the back leg in a split leap, which would still be the 'other' leg. So in your model you would still be landing and kicking using both legs. Which is why it is silly to get too caught up in it. If a kid does it naturally - great!

If you look at the top 10 gymnasts from worlds or olympics you will find very few who do their forward and backward skills on different legs. I know because I trawled through video once to find out when researching this topic And lets be honest. They are pretty good gymnasts!

 

[CanAmGymMum]

If we're talking about young kids that haven't been doing back walkovers for years, although they may not naturally put the opposite foot in front the first time they're asked to do the skill, that foot may feel completely natural after doing it a few times. There are always exceptions, and I think it's important, as a coach, to be flexible, but it would nice to have an 'optimal' model to begin with.

not true - you would be landing/lunging on opposite leg front and back walkover

Cartwheels, back walkovers and back handsprings would land in the same lunge. For front walkovers, I really don't think the lunge position applies. Optimally, you'd land with all your weight on the back leg holding the front leg up, or at least with very little weight on the front leg.

We may just have to respectfully agree to disagree on this one

 

[CanAmGymMum]

My main argument is that our "model" right now is everything right or everything left, as per the compulsory text. I don't think anyone would disagree that 100% of our gymnasts may not naturally fit into this model. And I know that some very easily switch a back walkover leg to conform to this model, because I've seen it.

So, if we change the model, would it really be that hard for athletes, who start on preteam at a young age, before they learn their back walkover, to learn it on their opposite leg? For most, I don't think it would be. And it would open up some doors for a variety of combinations later.