WAG Does USAG compulsory text and exemplar video lead Righties to Right-hurdle RO?

[Deleted member D3987]

It would help me put your replies in context. Personally, I find the idea that simply putting down a right pre printed cartwheel mat will result in a 3 year old doing a righty cartwheel for life fairly absurd. First of all, putting down a cartwheel mat for beginners, much less 3 year olds who lack spatial awareness, tends to produce absurd results that don't resemble a cartwheel much whatsoever. The kids will put their hands down and twist any which way really. But perhaps you teach 3 year olds with superb spatial awareness skills and cognitive retention, and it is as simple as you say. That said my 3 year old classes look very different than yours then!

But there is no way to convince you if that is the preconceived notion you have of what it is like for small children to be taught/learn gymnastics. It's not really likely that a child would be working with the same coach from age 3 through elite and thus would never be allowed to do their dominant side cartwheel. It's certainly unlikely that showing a left dominant 3 year old a righty cartwheel would then result in them doing right cartwheels for more than one minute. So I don't find any of this hypothetical scenario very compelling, since we're talking about USAG and that is just not the way it works in gymnastics programs in the US.

It is hard to answer your hypothetical because most people use their dominant side in gymnastics. Would it affect you later on? I really can't imagine that if you do, for example, a right round off back handspring proficiently enough to do elite level tumbling out of it, that it really affects or affected you that much. Gymnastics is all just a series of habits, so if you were capable of proficiently learning on your right side I guess you would learn. But the likelihood of overriding the neurological basis for sidedness in the long term seems low. The children would switch back to their dominant side at EVERY opportunity, which would be basically every time they did gymnastics ever. So you are telling me that short of intensive private coaching from age 3, a coach could make sure a left dominant child with no ambidextrous tendencies always did right sided gymnastics? Not in the USA gymnastics system, nope. Most likely if a coach successfully switched a child they had ambidextrous tendencies and the switch was to correct confusion and technical errors.

i have to agree with you!

 

[gymdog]

So, @Amusibus whatever happened with your DD's dominant leg switch? I'm curious if her coaches were successful in changing her.

And thanks for posting this. I had forgotten about this thread, but it all came back when I tried to process it again.

True, I suppose it would be a good data entry for this conversation.

 

[gopuckgo]

Okay I looked at the last post and now I am totally confused after reading the old post. What exactly are you calling a "right" cartwheel/round off versus left? In the olden days we called it "righty" if you had your right leg in front in the lunge in a cartwheel or round off meaning right arm strikes closest to the leg and left arm is the farthest reaching arm, thus landing left foot in front. So to make sure I am understanding this, you call that a " lefty" now because they are technically rotating left? And the person doing the old "righty" sided cartwheel, round off should be twisting right (ie clockwise) or counterclockwise (left)? So much has changed over the years. It used to be that you just did what worked best/easiest. I never gave thought to it becoming such a problem when entering the pre-elite, elite levels.

 

[Jenny]

All of our athletes are ambidextrous and can do all skills either way. Just today we had a kid do both a right and left roundoff straight into a front handspring double back. When we asked her how she learned this she stated that anyone can learn to reverse the entire space–time continuum simply by reading the USAG compulsory text from right to left and back to front.

I can't make sense of that tumble in my head. Do you mean back handspring? I am in awe that anyone can do a round off change direction forwards into a front handspring change direction into a double back. Sounds awesome though.

 

[profmom]

One of our best coaches went back and got an MA in early childhood ed and child development. Now that was money well spent. As someone with some good friends in that field, it's pretty easy to tell in this thread who either has some training or substantial practical experience in that area and who doesn't.

JBS, your athlete sounds like one of the very few truly ambidextrous people out there.

 

[suebee]

It is hard to answer your hypothetical because most people use their dominant side in gymnastics. Would it affect you later on? I really can't imagine that if you do, for example, a right round off back handspring proficiently enough to do elite level tumbling out of it, that it really affects or affected you that much. Gymnastics is all just a series of habits, so if you were capable of proficiently learning on your right side I guess you would learn. But the likelihood of overriding the neurological basis for sidedness in the long term seems low. The children would switch back to their dominant side at EVERY opportunity, which would be basically every time they did gymnastics ever. So you are telling me that short of intensive private coaching from age 3, a coach could make sure a left dominant child with no ambidextrous tendencies always did right sided gymnastics? Not in the USA gymnastics system, nope. Most likely if a coach successfully switched a child they had ambidextrous tendencies and the switch was to correct confusion and technical errors.

Not sure about gymnastics but I do think that people can, with much repetition, be taught to do things with their non-dominant side until they do prefer it. For example, I posted that my FIL is probably a true lefty but lived in a time and place that everyone was taught to eat and write with their right hands. I suspect he struggled a lot more than righties to learn to write and eat and perhaps his handwriting was never as good as it would have been otherwise, but he continues to eat and write righty now even though he could have switched to lefty many years ago .

I also have worked with quite a few lefty surgeons who operate righty but write lefty. They said they trained at a time that everything was set up for righties and they just learned to operate that way, similar to my FIL. Even though now they are able to ask to have things set up for a lefty, they continue to operate righty.

That being said, as a righty, I do not think I could now learn to write with my left hand but perhaps if I had learned as a child? I don't know.

 

[Iwannabemargo]

husbands Gran had a stroke, she was right handed but the stroke affected her right side. She learned, at 76 to write with her left hand, it was never very pretty but she managed to write small notes, cheques etc.

 

[gymdilettante]

I can't make sense of that tumble in my head. Do you mean back handspring? I am in awe that anyone can do a round off change direction forwards into a front handspring change direction into a double back. Sounds awesome though.

Lol I think it was a joke (see time space continuum).

With regard to the Alyssa/gymdog disagreement, remember that this is a second hand story about one person. I notice people often say something happened when they were three when they really mean when they were a child, anytime from 3-7, perhaps. People seem to often exaggerate how young they were when something hapened (or maybe their memory isn't so great with regards to when they were under 7). Plus since it does involve just one kid, maybe he was an unusually coordinated kid given that he apparently reached the elite level. Or maybe this guy was just lying. Who knows? Admittedly the idea of walking into some famous eastern european's gym at 3 seems a little far fetched. But I think we should give the op the benefit of the doubt unless there is some reason not to. Even if the hypothetical isn't compelling, clearly many people find the topic interesting based on the number of posts.

At the same time, op, if you haven't taught young children and this is just a hypothetical, then you don't need to get prickly when someone asks if you coach young children.

Okay so I also find this topic interesting and I'm curious if the way I do various skills is consistent. I'm right handed but I can write fluidly if not neatly with my left. Have a very good two handed backhand in tennis (like a lefthand forehand with the right along for the ride). Anyway I prefer my left split by far, will kick over with my left foot in the air (taking advantage of the better split), prefer left leg step in for CW and RO, lead with right leg into handstand (ie left on floor longer), jump full turn clockwise.

Actually one other question. ...what about the foot you turn on? I originally turned on my right but my knee started to hurt so I switched to left and now I can turn on both feet in both directions (not well lol). I guess I prefer to turn on the right foot but learning on the left was way easier than learning a CW or RO the other way would be, I'm guessing.

 

[Jenny]

Not sure about gymnastics but I do think that people can, with much repetition, be taught to do things with their non-dominant side until they do prefer it. For example, I posted that my FIL is probably a true lefty but lived in a time and place that everyone was taught to eat and write with their right hands. I suspect he struggled a lot more than righties to learn to write and eat and perhaps his handwriting was never as good as it would have been otherwise, but he continues to eat and write righty now even though he could have switched to lefty many years ago .

I also have worked with quite a few lefty surgeons who operate righty but write lefty. They said they trained at a time that everything was set up for righties and they just learned to operate that way, similar to my FIL. Even though now they are able to ask to have things set up for a lefty, they continue to operate righty.

That being said, as a righty, I do not think I could now learn to write with my left hand but perhaps if I had learned as a child? I don't know.

kids at school who have a cast on their writing hand usually manage to write with the other hand enough to get by. My dd who is a left handed writer uses a mouse right handed. Even though she knows how to make it reverse she doesn't bother. She says it is much easier to just rock up to any Pc and use the mouse on the right side as is. has done since she was tiny

 

[Amusibus]

So, @Amusibus whatever happened with your DD's dominant leg switch? I'm curious if her coaches were successful in changing her.

And thanks for posting this. I had forgotten about this thread, but it all came back when I tried to process it again.

Well..... they continue to make my right handed daughter do a lefty roundoff, and frankly, it stinks! Her right roundoff is gorgeous, straight, and powerful. For the left one, it looks awkward and she goes sort of crooked and it is slow, not powerful, and she kind of pikes down. If I could figure out how to post a video, I would. Maybe I should bring it up with the coach as a concern? I have tried to just step back and assume things would sort themselves out, but come to think of it, you'd expect after two years it would be better. Maybe she just really isn't switchable.

 

[Jenny]

I don't remember but why did they make her switch? We would never switch a round off. Would maybe try to change the kickover leg (or work both)

 

[Amusibus]

I figured out how to upload an image but not a video, so here are a few video stills that show what I mean. The first one shows the lead in to the lefty roundoff. Her hands end up way in front of her feet and she goes crooked right away.

The second one is mid-roundoff. She never really reaches vertical and you can see she is twisted.

In the last one that is her landing. Chest is waaay down and overall it has no power.

The reason they are trying to switch her has to do with direction of rotation once she is older and doing twisting skills. They want to have her twist to her dominant side, so I think that means a left roundoff twists right, and to attach a twisting skill after it they should both twist in the same direction. This is how it was explained to me, though despite Dunno's valient attempts at extremely detailed technical explanation, I still struggle to wrap my brain around all this information. Thoughts?

 

[Alyssa S.]

 

[Alyssa S.]

i have to agree with you!

There should be no genuine dispute that people (especially younger children) can be taught to use the non dominant side with repetition. After several years and thousands of non-dominant-side cartwheels, a 6 -year old will be BETTER--much better-- with the non dominant side. The prior posts by parents, coaches, including posters here, demonstrates this unequivocal fact has occurred many times. Perhaps we can we agree on this particular fact (without resorting to character attacks, comparing resumes, or putting words in another person's mouth to make straw-man counterarguments)?

It happens.

@dunno, you previously posited that the topic might be too difficult even for gymnastics coaches to understand. The fact is that gymnastics coaches disagree wildly. Has anyone truly figured this out yet?

 

[Jenny]

View attachment 5197
I figured out how to upload an image but not a video, so here are a few video stills that show what I mean. The first one shows the lead in to the lefty roundoff. Her hands end up way in front of her feet and she goes crooked right away.
View attachment 5197 View attachment 5198
The second one is mid-roundoff. She never really reaches vertical and you can see she is twisted.
View attachment 5197 View attachment 5198
View attachment 5199
In the last one that is her landing. Chest is waaay down and overall it has no power.

The reason they are trying to switch her has to do with direction of rotation once she is older and doing twisting skills. They want to have her twist to her dominant side, so I think that means a left roundoff twists right, and to attach a twisting skill after it they should both twist in the same direction. This is how it was explained to me, though despite Dunno's valient attempts at extremely detailed technical explanation, I still struggle to wrap my brain around all this information. Thoughts?

Well call me dumb but that just seems pointless to me. If her round off is so weak on that side even now how will she ever even get to twist. I would call that cutting your nose off to spite your face frankly.
some people teach L round off right twist and some teach L round off L twist.

 

[Jenny]

There should be no genuine dispute that people (especially younger children) can be taught to use the non dominant side with repetition. After several years and thousands of non-dominant-side cartwheels, a 6 -year old will be BETTER--much better-- with the non dominant side. The prior posts by parents, coaches, including posters here, demonstrates this unequivocal fact has occurred many times. Perhaps we can we agree on this particular fact (without resorting to character attacks, comparing resumes, or putting words in another person's mouth to make straw-man counterarguments)?

It happens.

@dunno, you previously posited that the topic might be too difficult even for gymnastics coaches to understand. The fact is that gymnastics coaches disagree wildly. Has anyone truly figured this out yet?

I don't see the point like I said above but people obviously go to great lengths to do it. If people can twist successfully either way off a R round off I don't think it matters which 'model' you follow. Club preference - much like leg up or leg down in a round off. If your kid doesn't suit the club model - find a club that does LOL

 

[gymdog]

There should be no genuine dispute that people (especially younger children) can be taught to use the non dominant side with repetition. After several years and thousands of non-dominant-side cartwheels, a 6 -year old will be BETTER--much better-- with the non dominant side. The prior posts by parents, coaches, including posters here, demonstrates this unequivocal fact has occurred many times

If we agree on that, the answer to your question is no, it will not affect someone in the long term to switch them to the opposite side. Granted, I agree with dunno that a gymnastics forum isn't the best place to ask this question. A forum of neurologists might produce more accurate information. We can only describe what we see/experience with the kids.

 

[gymdog]

Well call me dumb but that just seems pointless to me. If her round off is so weak on that side even now how will she ever even get to twist. I would call that cutting your nose off to spite your face frankly.
some people teach L round off right twist and some teach L round off L twist.

Not really, as I posted earlier the overwhelming majority of high level gymnasts do left/left or right/right. Left/right or vice versa is common enough not to be shocking, but it's not something that is "taught" anymore. In the old Soviet Union there was apparently a theory that right handed people twist left or vice versa. The reasoning I've heard applied to this was that when a right handed person reaches across their body for something they will twist to the left so this must be natural for them. But when not given any direction as to sidedness, this is not what appears to happen. Also, during this time gymnastics was very different and did not include many of the skills we use today, such as twisting into step outs. So this is a very old theory that some coaches may be using today, but it is extremely, extremely uncommon. I am not sure why Amusibus's daughter's coach is using it, she would have to ask (I hope she does for the sake of this conversation, lol). But it seems to be producing less than adequate results.

Anyway, JBS was joking, and made up a fake pass in jest. It isn't possible. Most athletes aren't highly ambidextrous.

 

[Amusibus]

Hmm usually Chalkbucket eases my anxiety but this thread is increasing it!!

 

[Alyssa S.]

If we agree on that, the answer to your question is no, it will not affect someone in the long term to switch them to the opposite side. Granted, I agree with dunno that a gymnastics forum isn't the best place to ask this question. A forum of neurologists might produce more accurate information. We can only describe what we see/experience with the kids.

Thanks!

Might your conclusion be different after considering whether the switch (thru a new gym or new coach) to the proper/dominant side (say, at age 6 to 10), could eventually provide better results for the gymnast?

Some coaches seem to believe this switch is optimal; while others seem to deny it could ever arise in the first place (which I don't find credible, but still valuable to understand the contrasting coaches' perspectives).