Women FHS vault - head out a good thing?

[gympoppop]

Hi All,

My youngest daughter is in Level 4 and has struggled with vault all year. Her state meet is coming up this week and she is trying to get her vault out of the 7s to have a chance to meet her gym’s score out requirement. I was scrolling through some videos of one of her recent meets and noticed that in the warmup vaults she did, her head was stuck way out and the vault was much more dynamic with better rotation and blocking off the table. In her two scored vaults, she had her head tucked more in and did two vaults that fell off the table with no block and she got her typical score somewhere between 7.5-7.8.

When I look at elite front entry vaults, especially MAG, nearly every vaulter has their head ducked way out like my daughter did in her warmup vaults. My question is, even though this is a deduction in compulsory WAG, is this a better way to vault because it allows for better rotation and blocking? And would the first vault below score higher than the second despite the head out deduction? (I assume it would given the lack of dynamics in the second vault). I think I remember GT mentioning in some other threads that elites often have their head out on skills and there is too much emphasis on head in at the lower levels but I don’t remember the context. Any advice or insights would be greatly appreciated!

Head out vault



Head in vault

 

[NYGymfamily]

I haven't coached vault in a very long time so I've lost a lot of knowledge so take this with a grain of salt, but from what I remember from my experience, and my daughter's as well, she should keep her head neutral. Everything from head to toes should be aligned. If someone who knows a bit more than me wants to wants to correct me, feel free.

 

[Dahlialover]

Here is what it should look like.

 

[GymDadWA]

Head out vault



Head in vault

FYI - Your videos are marked private so the coaches can't watch them.

 

[gympoppop]

Hmmm, that’s odd. I had the videos set as unlisted which I thought would work, but just in case I’ve now made them public.

I know the code of points says that the head should be neutral, but my understanding is that there is substantial disagreement among coaches about whether it should actually be taught this way. When I watch videos of front entry vaults from nearly any elite gymnast, the head position is way out from between the arms and they are in an arched body position onto the table. The video below at :25 is a good example and I’ve attached a still frame from when his hands hit the table. I would think they do this because a neutral head position limits rotation and I’m thinking that is why my daughter’s vault with the head out is much more powerful and may score much better despite a potential lack of neutral head and arched body deduction.

 

[Dahlialover]

FYI - Your videos are marked private so the coaches can't watch them.

I can see the videos. Her head is not the problem. The one you have marked as “head in” has many things wrong with it. The one you have marked as “head out” is much better but The head position is not the key difference. The biggest issue with both vaults is a weak block. She’s not getting any height off the table. I’m sure her coaches are working on this with her.

 

[TumbleTwist]

You are comparing apples to oranges by comparing vaults from an elite gymnast to a level 4. There's a lot more going on in your daughter's vaults than just head in vs. head out. While the vault with her head out MAY have scored better, it wouldn't have been by much. In order to learn to do this vault properly, her head should be in a neutral position. Sticking her head out, (while it looks like it creates a more dynamic vault) is still leading to a whole bunch of other shaping and dynamics deductions. In the L4 vault, the neutral head position does not inhibit rotation and blocking. But proper shaping in all 3 phases is important to get that rotation and block. Sticking your head out is not the solution. In fact sticking her head out is going to lead to her closing her shoulders, thus making the block impossible. While it may seem like a quick fix to increase her score, she'll only be learning bad habits that will become difficult to break.

 

[NYGymfamily]

In order to learn to do this vault properly, her head should be in a neutral position. Sticking her head out, (while it looks like it creates a more dynamic vault) is still leading to a whole bunch of other shaping and dynamics deductions. In the L4 vault, the neutral head position does not inhibit rotation and blocking.

I agree. Learning to vault with a neutral position is going to benefit her more in the long run rather than vaulting with improper technique just to raise the score by a minimal margin. She needs more heel drive regardless of head position. I would hope that her coaches are working with her to improve her vault.

 

[Gymgirl84]

Usually for really hard vaults, you need to create a lot of momentum, so usually you have to adapt your technique (bigger arch, head out) but you need to have solid technique under it and more important even, a lot of strength.
Many elite gymnasts can afford to do those changes on their technique without it hindering the vault because they are really strong and can still block well from that position.
Anyway, head in or out is not correct, arms by ears should be the position and eyes could be looking at the hands or not depending on preference, but ears covered is a basic they need to understand.

 

[gympoppop]

Thanks everyone for the replies and interesting discussion. I 100% agree that she is nowhere near an elite level vault and that there are many other issues and deductions with the vault that her coaches have been working with her on. It was just striking to me how much difference that the head position made on two vaults that were only a few minutes apart, and thought I would raise the question. Although I think her head is probably too “non-neutral” in the first vault, if that’s a word lol.

I find gymnastics technique and coaching differences very interesting but I am still an amateur. I did a bit more Googling and found a few pages from coaches that seem to indicate that covering the ears off the board and onto the table does now allow for a proper block so there do appear to be different opinions on this among coaches. Here is an interesting post on this exact topic from way back that actually has a supportive comment by @Geoffrey Taucer to not have a neutral head on table contact.

Front Handspring Vault – Head Position?

Well… Since so many folks are responding to Troy’s request for an intense front handspring discussion, I figured that I’d spur on the discussion a little bit. So, here’s a t…

thegymcoach.wordpress.com

And all of the “Excellent” body shape examples from this page for FHS pike vaults show gymnasts with the head not being neutral and there being a tight arch body shape.

Judge’s Inquiry: Good vs. Great vs. Excellent Front Handspring Pike Half Vaults - College Gym News

All the recent articles published on College Gym News, including event coverage, recruiting news, features, data deep dives and more.

collegegymnews.com

 

[JBS]

Such a great thread... this is what I have been working through for years in the women's program. There are just so many things in the women's compulsory world that are just not correct. Things are taught weirdly to the fact that they defy gravity and sport biomechanics in general...

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Then at a certain point the girls get this new coach that is very experienced in upper level coaching... or maybe used to be a men's gymnastics coach and...

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They no longer have to fight physics with these weird non-rhythmical movements.

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Anyways... that's just my rant. I 100% agree with the following...

Regardless of the technique being used... the above is still true in my mind.

 

[Gymgirl84]

I previously hadn't seen the videos yet and now that I have I think the head position on the "head out" vid is not bad IMO.

I have a similar problem in our program with the Half-on vaults, where they apply FIG deductions and thus they deduct a lot for both hands hitting the table alternatively and not doing a complete 1/2 which goes quite against what you want to do for the tsukahara style vaults with flips.

 

[JBS]

I'm going to expand on this a bit more and really make no sense to everyone.

Instead of a "block" let's call it a "punch"... an upper body "punch". Just like we "punch" the springboard... coaches want their athlete to "punch" or block off of the table.

Now stand stomach towards the wall and put your arms fully up so your shoulders / arms cover your ears and try to do it? Try to move like a "punch"... do you feel power... I doubt it.

Let's think of something else... let's call the "block" or upper body "punch" a "sharp push". If you were going to push someone... would you cover your ears with your arms / shoulders before you pushed them? If you were going to punch someone... would you cover your ears before you did it... huh... what? NO... here you go...

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Taking out the rotational parts of a punch and only looking at the actual part where the shoulder extends out at the end... that is a block.

On a forward entry vault... you can throw your shoulders forward into the table (like a boxing punch) and bounce up higher in the air. Keep in mind that this has to be done at the right time at the right angle with enough body tension with enough power behind the vault in general to work at all.

On a Yurchenko style vault it does NOT happen like this.

 

[JBS]

On a Yurchenko style vault it does NOT happen like this.

Let me know if you want me to go off on Yurchenko "blocking" next... I am going to give you my "strut" speech. A Yurchenko block is more like a strut in a car... or a vault spring.

 

[gympoppop]

@JBS i would love to hear about Yurechenko blocking! My other daughter is a L7 and vault is also her weakest event so that could be hugely helpful. This discussion has reminded me of a previous discussion we had on giants, where you said that high level gymnasts often pull their heads out when doing giants but keep the head neutral when trying to reduce rotation and just do a tap swing and (like vaulting), many coaches will continue stressing a neutral head position in both skills.

Based on this discussion and the various other material/threads I’ve read, my understanding of a proper FHS vault is that the gymnast should not have their ears covered on table contact but rather be looking at their hands with slightly closed shoulders, then the gymnast opens shoulders on table contact and the arms then cover the ears to create a proper “punch” off the table. They then hold that arm position until the landing. Does that sound about right? But, as others here have mentioned, you don’t want the shoulders excessively closed on table contact because that would also create sluggish repulsion.

 

[GymDadWA]

Sorry to hijack your thread OP, but Yes please explain the blocking, my DD got so frustrated with vault this year that she just started scratching it, timers look fine, but when she goes to do the full vault just can't generate enough power, would love to hear your breakdown.

Let me know if you want me to go off on Yurchenko "blocking" next... I am going to give you my "strut" speech. A Yurchenko block is more like a strut in a car... or a vault spring.

 

[3rd_time_around]

Hi All,

My youngest daughter is in Level 4 and has struggled with vault all year. Her state meet is coming up this week and she is trying to get her vault out of the 7s to have a chance to meet her gym’s score out requirement. I was scrolling through some videos of one of her recent meets and noticed that in the warmup vaults she did, her head was stuck way out and the vault was much more dynamic with better rotation and blocking off the table. In her two scored vaults, she had her head tucked more in and did two vaults that fell off the table with no block and she got her typical score somewhere between 7.5-7.8.

When I look at elite front entry vaults, especially MAG, nearly every vaulter has their head ducked way out like my daughter did in her warmup vaults. My question is, even though this is a deduction in compulsory WAG, is this a better way to vault because it allows for better rotation and blocking? And would the first vault below score higher than the second despite the head out deduction? (I assume it would given the lack of dynamics in the second vault). I think I remember GT mentioning in some other threads that elites often have their head out on skills and there is too much emphasis on head in at the lower levels but I don’t remember the context. Any advice or insights would be greatly appreciated!

Head out vault



Head in vault

Neither vault is dynamic, and neither one has blocking. She is back bending off the table in both videos. I wouldn't score either one above a 7.7 if I were judging. The deductions would come from shoulder angle (.2), no height (.5), too long in support (.5), no distance (.3), and leaving the table below horizontal (1.00). Her head being out causes a shoulder angle of less than 180 degrees. I think you don't need to focus on her head being out at this point, because there is a lot going on that she needs to work on. Leave it up to her coach, they will work it out.

 

[3rd_time_around]

Hmmm, that’s odd. I had the videos set as unlisted which I thought would work, but just in case I’ve now made them public.

I know the code of points says that the head should be neutral, but my understanding is that there is substantial disagreement among coaches about whether it should actually be taught this way. When I watch videos of front entry vaults from nearly any elite gymnast, the head position is way out from between the arms and they are in an arched body position onto the table. The video below at :25 is a good example and I’ve attached a still frame from when his hands hit the table. I would think they do this because a neutral head position limits rotation and I’m thinking that is why my daughter’s vault with the head out is much more powerful and may score much better despite a potential lack of neutral head and arched body deduction.

This is a front handspring-front vault, and the technique to get the forward rotation is why they look like that. That is different than a front handspring vault, which is what your daughter is doing in the videos. You can't compare a front-front optional/elite level vault with a basic front handspring vault.
Good luck to her though, vault is a weird animal.

 

[JBS]

Here are some different compulsory vaults that all still look down the arms to the hands... the ears get more covered as you go down the line... but still none are fully covered...

Here is a nice one...



And another...



And probably the most perfect compulsory vault I have ever seen...

 

[JBS]

And here so you can see...