Parents How much do you uptrain?

[Aussie_coach]

There is a big difference between sandbagging and having kids compete at a level they are competent at while working higher level skills.

A club that sandbags is one that would have gymnasts repeat the same level for two or more years, even though are are ready to move up in order to win. Generally it is considered sandbagging f it is to the detriment of the athlete. Ie spending years in level 4, making it hard for them to be able to progress fast enough to make it to a high enough level to progress to their potential, ie elite, level 10 college.

But smart coaching is having your gymnasts already solid atbthe level they are competing and uptraining to a higher level.

 

[gymgal]

When talking about sandbagging, I think you also have to consider age. There is no sense sending a gymnast quickly through the levels to have her compete L10 for 7+ years. Certainly if they are trying for elite but if you are in a program that doesn't train elite, it makes more sense to slow down their progression so they aren't too broken done from so many years at 10. The question becomes how fast/slow is too fast/slow.

 

[mom2newgymnast]

I'm not saying the OP's gym is sandbagging, and I agree that it's smart coaching to uptrain, but still.. If you have girls in level 3 that are competing the level 3 bar routine, but in practice have their kips, cast handstand, baby giant and are working on flyaways and giants.. that doesn't seem just a little unfair?

Honestly, I wish dd's gym had done more uptraining, so I'm not saying it's wrong at all. My dd had never done a front or back tuck other than on a trampoline before January. Her gym has a philosophy of really perfecting the basics before moving on and also of focusing on mastering what they need for that level. They definitely do not believe in the always moving forward idea. They won't move on until the previous step is perfect, at least in compulsories. So for example, it's not enough to have the ROBHS, it has to be really, really good before they will even introduce the ROBHSBT. And even then it started with tons of drills and spotted ones before they were allowed to do them on their own. Now that will change once they move to optionals, there they will start learning more at their own pace.

I am sure the girls love learning the higher skills and I think it is smart coaching to uptrain and keep them happy and challenged. I guess it's just a different coaching philosophy at dd's gym. I know we competed against some very good gyms last season at level 4 that you could tell their girls were training higher than they were competing. Dd's team held their own though and I think in the end they'll all end up in the same place.

 

[Aussie_coach]

I feel that all level 3's should be working kips, cast to handstands and Giants at least in the scrap bar. That is not unfair, that is good coaching practice. Obviously Level 3's should be working kips as this is required for level 4, they need to have them down by the time it comes time to start level 4.

But cast to handstands and Giants are skills that should be learned as early as possible. For a start it is much, much easier to learn both cast to handstands and Giants when kids are small. It will be easier and safer for coaches to spot these with level 3's than to wait until thy grow and the kids will find it much easier to learn when they have less height to have to work with. Then they can adjust technique as they drow, rather than try to learn the, with a much longer body.

Secondly, learning these skills make it much easier to learn many other lower level skills. If a gymnast can giant then tap swings, swing 1/2 turn dismounts, flyaway and baby Giants are all easier because they have developed a better understanding of the timing of the swing. If gymnasts can cast to handstand then skills like clear hips, Giants etc will be much easier to learn.

Common training philosophy for skill learning in good quality gyms is as follows -
Skills for current level - perfecting
Skills for next level - mastering
Skills for two levels up - learning
Skills for three levels up - drilling

Many top international coaches reccomend that a gymnast has a skill down for 2 years before she even considers doing it in a competition, learning to much safer performances and much better execution scores.

This is not sandbagging, sandbagging relates to repeating levels for no reason, not making sure your gymnasts are well prepared.

Your scoring system in the US may also be a little misleading, making it look like kids are closer to perfection than they are. I see kids falling off apparatus in the US and still scoring in the 8's because yiu have a system of using smaller deductions. It makes the scores seem very high, and can give a false sense to the gymnast of how close the competition is or how close they are to perfecting skills.

We use international standards for deductions, here in Australia from the FIG code of points. There are 4 different deductions a judge can take -
0.1 - minor error, ie very small bend in arms and legs
0.3 - moderate deduction - ie broken series, small bend in arms and legs less that 90 degrees, lack of split etc
0.5 - major deductions - landing in deep squat, bents more than 90 degrees
1.0 - a fall, hitting feet on floor on bars etc

 

[gymmomx2]

They won't move on until the previous step is perfect, at least in compulsories. So for example, it's not enough to have the ROBHS, it has to be really, really good before they will even introduce the ROBHSBT. And even then it started with tons of drills and spotted ones before they were allowed to do them on their own. Now that will change once they move to optionals, there they will start learning more at their own pace.

this could be uptraining if they work on the next skill as soon as the previous step is good and they don't wait until the season is over before working on new skills. For some (most?) gymnasts, they could get to this stage fairly early in the season meaning that they then spend the rest of the season working on new skills.

 

[dbean]

My daughter watched all the girls rising to the next level uptraining but because the coaches (also owners) knew her and two others were repeating their level, mainly because of bars, they were not given the same opportunity.

Don't think any are upset about not moving up but all three are hurt and upset they did not get to work new skills, skills like back layout and front layout on floor, tsuks and yurchanckos on vault, giants, free-hip hand and layout flys on bars, and back handsprings and switch leaps on beam. All three, with practice, could have easily competed several of this skills in the coming season. One is thinking of moving gyms because of it.

Disclaimer: know they wouldn't be able to compete vault skills in 6 and know girls need their kip handstands before they stress about giants and free hip hand but would have just been fun for them and help them work through fears early.

Coaches made a big deal about summer and uptraining and got everyone pumped and then crushed these girls.

 

[suebee]

I'm curious as to how gyms that differentiate do this for girls, particularly in compulsories. While dd's gym does some uptraining, they seem to uptrain as a team/group, not as individuals, although this depends somewhat on the event. For example, uptraining on beam does not require spotting, so it's easier, I think, to allow differentiation and some girls to uptrain more on beam while others may not. But I think it's harder for things that require drills or spotting, due to coaching limitations, and for dd's gym, that is definitely bars. They do not have just a few girls training giants if the rest of the girls in the group are training kip cast handstands, which I assume is in part at least for logistical reasons. There is a much wider variation in her group in terms of what kids can do on bars, and I think it prevents uptraining on bars for kids who could do it.

 

[MuggleMom]

The way it was explained to me this summer they have a set of drills/skills that follow a progression through the level 3/4/5 skills. Once a kid can reasonably successfully do a skill them move on to the next progression of drills and skills. For example if you have the level 3 bar routine down you have to complete a routine successfully then you start drilling and working kips. You get your kip you start working kip cast. You get that you can work kip cast handstand, and kip front hip circle and squat ons. The idea is that the coaches know the progression of skills and drills (especially since we have the same coaches for levels 3-5) so if there is variance in skill level your higher kids aren't bored and your lower kids aren't left behind. This is more for the compulsory levels I don't know how optionals work. This is a newer format which I like. Last year we had a lot of girls working on the same thing ALL THE TIME and it was getting stale. Now DD who is excelling at bars is getting in some great uptraining, while she is still working more basics with less uptraining on beam where she struggles. She was on the cusp of two different training groups and ended up in the "lower" one. I was worried this would put her behind but it hasn't so I am pleased.

 

[gymmomx2]

I'm curious as to how gyms that differentiate do this for girls, particularly in compulsories. While dd's gym does some uptraining, they seem to uptrain as a team/group, not as individuals, although this depends somewhat on the event. For example, uptraining on beam does not require spotting, so it's easier, I think, to allow differentiation and some girls to uptrain more on beam while others may not. But I think it's harder for things that require drills or spotting, due to coaching limitations, and for dd's gym, that is definitely bars. They do not have just a few girls training giants if the rest of the girls in the group are training kip cast handstands, which I assume is in part at least for logistical reasons. There is a much wider variation in her group in terms of what kids can do on bars, and I think it prevents uptraining on bars for kids who could do it.

DD has girls in the same group who were L5, L6, and L7 last season. Each girl has drills that require no spotting and drills that require the coach to spot. The coach will rotate between the pit bar and the bar set. Girls move between pit bar, bar set, floor bar, straps and do different things at each station based on what they are currently working on. So for example, if the coach is at the pit bar, she will spot some girls on CHS, some other girls on giants, some girls on pirouette. For dismounts, she spots girls doing flyaway timers and girls doing DB dismounts. Same kind of thing happens at every station, every girl has a different list of drills that they follow. It seems to work. They keep the coach to athlete ratio fairly small (max 1:8) so this helps.

 

[mom2newgymnast]

I'm curious as to how gyms that differentiate do this for girls, particularly in compulsories. While dd's gym does some uptraining, they seem to uptrain as a team/group, not as individuals, although this depends somewhat on the event. For example, uptraining on beam does not require spotting, so it's easier, I think, to allow differentiation and some girls to uptrain more on beam while others may not. But I think it's harder for things that require drills or spotting, due to coaching limitations, and for dd's gym, that is definitely bars. They do not have just a few girls training giants if the rest of the girls in the group are training kip cast handstands, which I assume is in part at least for logistical reasons. There is a much wider variation in her group in terms of what kids can do on bars, and I think it prevents uptraining on bars for kids who could do it.

This is similar to dd's gym. Beam is the only event that they really do individual uptraining on. They have to do so many reps of their main skills and/or routines, get passed by the coach for each of them and then, if there is still time, they are able to work on higher level skills. On bars and floor they have stations set up that they all work through and then one drill or spotted skill that the coach works with them on. Towards the end of the rotation, they sometimes let them work on something higher level on floor, but they all work on the same skill. On bars, they have a similar set up as floor. The girls aren't all at the same skill level yet, but they are pretty much all working on the same skills, just some with higher casts, etc. But the coaches aren't working on giants with some while others are working on cast handstands for example. I wish it could be more differentiated, and I know it will be once she is out of compulsories (one more year, yay!). This is just how her gym works and it has been successful for them so I don't think they see a reason to change it.

ETA: On bars they all do do drills for clear hip handstands, giants, etc. So they are definitely working towards them for everyone. But they don't differentiate between the stronger bars workers and the others.

 

[Deleted member 18037]

Common training philosophy for skill learning in good quality gyms is as follows -
Skills for current level - perfecting
Skills for next level - mastering
Skills for two levels up - learning
Skills for three levels up - drilling

Sounds like what our kids do.

 

[CCGymbug]

Our gym spends a majority of summer uptraining

 

[Deleted member 14190]

DD has just begun training level 4. Her gym competes in winter/spring, so plenty of time till meet season. Tonight she told me that the L4 coach is not going to start teaching them any of the L4 routines until they've mastered all the L5 skills first. Huh. Do your gyms uptrain this much? What are your thoughts on this training strategy? Interested in hearing diverse perspectives from parents and coaches.

Totally depends on each child. Thats how much.

 

[Really]

Totally depends on each child. Thats how much.

This actually makes more sense to me than a sweeping policy that covers a large group of girls!

 

[vbdb]

I don't uptrain at all, my DD spends most of the summer doing that (sorry I couldn't resist). They work on skills for the upcoming season and those for the next levels as well. She'll most likely do 6 this year, so she's working on castaway flyaway on bars and cleaning up Kip CHS, but she's also working on giants, free hip to HS etc for Level 7. Then uptraining will slow down while they prep for comp season which will start in late Nov for our optional girls and pick back up in the spring when they get closer to championships. We have one final fun meet in May each year and the kids can often compete up a level if they're ready to give it a try.

 

[mommyof1]

I am uptraining for optional parenting by watching the big girls do release moves and yurchenko timers so I won't have a heart attack when I eventually see my kid doing these things.

 

[txgymfan]

I am uptraining for optional parenting by watching the big girls do release moves and yurchenko timers so I won't have a heart attack when I eventually see my kid doing these things.

You are doing great drills. The next progression is to watch your DD's close friends do those moves. Be aware watching her train, compete yurchenkos and releases is much different than the drills you are currently doing.

 

[Gymmom0824]

My DD gym does about a level up for uptraining during the offseason then evaluates the skills before competition season. They have a rigid eval system they have all the girls go through before they're allowed to compete a skill outside of the gym.