WAG Hypothetical question for USAG Judges

[raenndrops]

Since this is hypothetical, it wouldn't even necessarily be in my state. I was just curious because I know a lot of girls who are old enough to petition into level 6/7... but coaches are scared of paperwork or something.
Like recording their skills and submitting a petition is tough - especially for those girls that competed Xcel Platinum, but had the CHS on bars and 180° split leaps / jumps on beam and floor and were practically competing L7 routines at Platinum.
Or even for girls that came to the sport later and have gotten the skills quickly, but haven't had a chance to get thru the compulsory levels.

 

[COz]

Or transfers from other countries...

 

[raenndrops]

Or transfers from other countries...

exactly!

 

[gymdog]

I am NOT recommending this but I have definitely seen situations where a girl came from another country, entered a level higher than 4, and I know for a fact the girl didn't petition or score out. AGAIN NOT SAYING DO THIS. and I'm not accusing anyone of specifically turning a blind eye, but nothing happened. So either no one noticed or...I don't know...maybe they didn't notice. In these cases the coaches were unaware that these things would be required if a girl came from another country and had already been competing. They weren't trying to cheat or anything.

And if it's an honest mistake (and people don't get transfers from other countries very often so it doesn't seem unreasonable that people might not realize exactly how specifically the rules apply) then the kid is already scoring well in say level 7, what exactly are they going to do? I'm honestly not sure...they could sanction the club I guess, somehow, but again honest mistake? I feel like it should be fairly obvious (and it was to me when the coach in question was telling me about the kid, but they were honestly surprised when I brought it up and they said it never occurred to them). And by then the kid had already competed the higher level fine.

 

[gymbeam]

welllll, gymdog, i was thinking the same thing... i know that happens more than folks would like to admit. its apparantly not really tracked/verified.

 

[raenndrops]

I am NOT recommending this but I have definitely seen situations where a girl came from another country, entered a level higher than 4, and I know for a fact the girl didn't petition or score out. AGAIN NOT SAYING DO THIS. and I'm not accusing anyone of specifically turning a blind eye, but nothing happened. So either no one noticed or...I don't know...maybe they didn't notice. In these cases the coaches were unaware that these things would be required if a girl came from another country and had already been competing. They weren't trying to cheat or anything.

And if it's an honest mistake (and people don't get transfers from other countries very often so it doesn't seem unreasonable that people might not realize exactly how specifically the rules apply) then the kid is already scoring well in say level 7, what exactly are they going to do? I'm honestly not sure...they could sanction the club I guess, somehow, but again honest mistake? I feel like it should be fairly obvious (and it was to me when the coach in question was telling me about the kid, but they were honestly surprised when I brought it up and they said it never occurred to them). And by then the kid had already competed the higher level fine.

From what i have heard, a coach might be put on probation and can lose their pro membership... the club can be sanctioned or even lose their status as a USAG member club.

 

[gymbeam]

yeah- i wouldnt think its worth the risk- but some do take it.

 

[strawberries]

I've known coaches to compete gymnasts underage as well, which seems like an even more foolish risk...

 

[gymdog]

yeah- i wouldnt think its worth the risk- but some do take it.

In the one case where I directly asked the coach about it, they were truly clueless. It never even occurred to them, so they didn't think they were risking anything. Not sure why it didn't occur to them, but I feel they were genuinely surprised. So, I don't really know what should be done but I would hope that no one would be sanctioned too harshly after one instance of that. If they do it repeated times or something, that's different. Maybe they should have to read the R and P and take a quiz or something.

I don't know anyone who has competed kids underage here, the ages are already low and its extremely competitive so probably no point.

 

[raenndrops]

In the one case where I directly asked the coach about it, they were truly clueless. It never even occurred to them, so they didn't think they were risking anything. Not sure why it didn't occur to them, but I feel they were genuinely surprised. So, I don't really know what should be done but I would hope that no one would be sanctioned too harshly after one instance of that. If they do it repeated times or something, that's different. Maybe they should have to read the R and P and take a quiz or something.

I don't know anyone who has competed kids underage here, the ages are already low and its extremely competitive so probably no point.

I would think if it was only one girl, and the coach truly seemed clueless (which would seem funny if they had to get the gymnast an athlete membership... because that would mean she had NOT had one before and R& P is clear about starting with L4), that the first offense would only be probation... and an audit of all gymnasts going back 'x' number of years to make sure it truly was the first time.

 

[chalkbowl]

Yes, I'm also familiar with a club that has had several gymnasts skip levels w/o competing in a sectioned meet to score out...nothing happened.

 

[gymdog]

I would think if it was only one girl, and the coach truly seemed clueless (which would seem funny if they had to get the gymnast an athlete membership... because that would mean she had NOT had one before and R& P is clear about starting with L4), that the first offense would only be probation... and an audit of all gymnasts going back 'x' number of years to make sure it truly was the first time.

I honestly don't know. I think it was one of those situations where a parent helped fill out the forms and enter everything too. This coach had other athletes from other gyms/Xcel properly score out so again I don't think it was an instance of wanting to cheat. For some reason it just didn't occur to them that coming from another country meant you couldn't just join your level group here. I think part of the problem is that the kid was already an optional level. Keep in mind that most people don't participate on boards like these and I honestly know coaches who don't know half the fine points of this and that even though they're good gymnastics coaches. So when a kid comes from Xcel and is working on level 5 skills, it makes sense they have to score out of 4. But when a kid comes and is working on level 8 skills, for example, it doesn't automatically register for some people that that kid would have to go back and compete a level 4 meet. Actually they just changed the R and P this year to have a less restrictive petition system for foreign athletes. But before, it has been more restrictive and didn't generally "make sense."

 

[strawberries]

Gymdog's, I didn't mean to imply that your friend did anything knowingly wrong, and I'm certainly not a fan of punishing accidental rule violations. He's good in my book.

The coaches who break rules on purpose, for a competitive advantage on the other hand...

 

[gymdog]

Oh I agree. I just think in some cases the system is maybe more restrictive than it has to be to a point where it doesn't make sense. What if a child comes from cheerleading at age 9 and already knows how to do a double full, has extreme gymnastics talent and therefore also learns everything on bars and beam and vault in 6 months quickly to level 7/8? She should have to do a bunch of meets and learn the compulsory routines? I like compulsories, but I think that's silly. But the petition system for US athletes only allows petitions for 14 and up and this child isn't 14 but has clearly surpassed a compulsory skill level in gymnastics. Why shouldn't she be able to petition?

Note, this is a real life scenario, although the kid was older than 9 but not 14, and was competing level 10/elite two years later. Came from a competitive cheer background and has extreme gymnastics/acrobatic talent which enabled her to learn many more basic skills very quickly. I assume they just scored her out really early.

 

[raenndrops]

I honestly don't know. I think it was one of those situations where a parent helped fill out the forms and enter everything too. This coach had other athletes from other gyms/Xcel properly score out so again I don't think it was an instance of wanting to cheat. For some reason it just didn't occur to them that coming from another country meant you couldn't just join your level group here. I think part of the problem is that the kid was already an optional level. Keep in mind that most people don't participate on boards like these and I honestly know coaches who don't know half the fine points of this and that even though they're good gymnastics coaches. So when a kid comes from Xcel and is working on level 5 skills, it makes sense they have to score out of 4. But when a kid comes and is working on level 8 skills, for example, it doesn't automatically register for some people that that kid would have to go back and compete a level 4 meet. Actually they just changed the R and P this year to have a less restrictive petition system for foreign athletes. But before, it has been more restrictive and didn't generally "make sense."

For a foreign athlete it would be more confusing... especially if they were working higher level skills

 

[raenndrops]

Oh I agree. I just think in some cases the system is maybe more restrictive than it has to be to a point where it doesn't make sense. What if a child comes from cheerleading at age 9 and already knows how to do a double full, has extreme gymnastics talent and therefore also learns everything on bars and beam and vault in 6 months quickly to level 7/8? She should have to do a bunch of meets and learn the compulsory routines? I like compulsories, but I think that's silly. But the petition system for US athletes only allows petitions for 14 and up and this child isn't 14 but has clearly surpassed a compulsory skill level in gymnastics. Why shouldn't she be able to petition?

Note, this is a real life scenario, although the kid was older than 9 but not 14, and was competing level 10/elite two years later. Came from a competitive cheer background and has extreme gymnastics/acrobatic talent which enabled her to learn many more basic skills very quickly. I assume they just scored her out really early.

I agree that the petition system should be "better" ... if you have the skills, you should be able to petition to optionals starting at 9 or 10... since you have to be at least 7, there is no rush for 7-8 year olds, imho. They can score out if they want to hurry thru. There should also be an actual petition form prominently located on the USAG forms page (i can only find the injury petition there).

 

[gymdog]

I agree that the petition system should be "better" ... if you have the skills, you should be able to petition to optionals starting at 9 or 10... since you have to be at least 7, there is no rush for 7-8 year olds, imho. They can score out if they want to hurry thru. There should also be an actual petition form prominently located on the USAG forms page (i can only find the injury petition there).

They did just change the foreign athlete thing - the newest rules and policies say that any athlete with foreign competitive experience can petition the regional chairperson for level 8 and above, and the state chairperson for 7 and below. But I still just see for US athletes that have other experience, they can petition if they're 14 into level 7. I agree about 7 and 8 year olds, but they will be placed with their age anyway and even most optional development and TOPs 7 and 8 year olds are doing level 4 and 5 anyway. But even 12 and 13 year olds? I think as Xcel grows in popularity this will become more and more of an issue, so I think this might eventually change.