WAG Interesting article on the state of gymnastics coaching

[JBS]

On the whole, I think the gym tuition (I do not, however, refer to our booster club expenses, which are a whole other issue) we pay is quite inexpensive for the service we are getting. In principle, I would be willing to pay more for this service, but right now I can't really afford to because of your very last point--our household has two working parents, so we have to pay for child care in addition to gymnastics. Child care for a gymnast is at best wasteful (you have to pay for full-time after-school care when you only use it an hour a day) and at worst even more expensive than child care for a non-gymnast (hiring a nanny to drive the kid to practice). It seems like it would be a great business model for gyms to operate after-school care programs with transportation. Buy a van, get the necessary insurance and licenses, and pick the kids up at school and let them do homework in the party room until practice starts. This would be perfectly feasible at our gym, where most of the kids attend a handful of nearby schools. In fact, a nearby martial arts school has this exact type of program. During the summer, the van could drop the kids off at the local day camps after morning practice. I would be willing and able to pay for this service AND pay higher tuition if I could quit paying hundreds of dollars a month for child care that I barely use.

Love it...but not exactly a walk in the park to implement.

At our gym...we would have to expand the facility.

 

[JBS]

While on the subject of learning to teach...here are some good resources...

http://www.gymmomentum.com/

http://gymnasticscoaching.com/new/

http://www.flippingedu.com/

 

[Tony Gym Momentum]

I spend a great deal of my time coaching in OTHER PEOPLES gyms. What I have learned is that education is an issue (not a problem) pretty much world wide. There are some great technicians out there who fail to communicate with their gymnasts. There are also some great communicators who do not spend enough time on technique. Like everything in life you need to find balance.

I have a lecture that I have done before at Regional and National Congresses as well as in Canada and I believe I have given it in Italy as well called COACHES AS EDUCATORS.
It is my favorite lecture to do. As a "coach" you are an educator. Your subject is Gymnastics Technique.

I know I am giving it some where this summer. I just cannot remember where (possibly Region 4 or Gymcon in Las Vegas?) I will look it up and post it.

Thank you everyone for your comments- Those of you not happy because I poised only questions and not answers- The answers are coming.

 

[LizzieLac]

Remember, too, that most gyms are considered "small business." Without commenting on the topic of nationalized healthcare, traditionally small business owner could not really afford the type of healthcare, dental and other benefits that companies and large corporations could. So, not only do the coaches not get paid a whole lot (and I live in part of the country with a very high cost of living), they get very sparse healthcare insurance and benefits.

Last point, my son has been coached by Dutch soccer coaches here in the US. In Holland, they have degree college programs that prepare the soccer player/professional for a lifetime career as a professional soccer coach. Obviously they are excellent athletes, soccer players, etc. but they are taught coaching technique as well as sports physiology. The result is a group of professionals teaching within a system - so it is consistent technique and approaches!! Several of these professionals have come to the US and started a program (it is in a couple of states now) and so far my son has been coached by 3 Dutch soccer professionals and the experience has been excellent!

 

[Seeker]

Do you understand that by putting a group of students "through the motions"...you are disabling their ability to learn. Just as a coach must know what they are teaching...the student must know what they are learning. What???...think about it...you'll get it.

This whole thread is great, but this is the most important thing I think you have raised about what it takes to be a great coach. The student needs to be considered....greatly! I think they often are not and are just expected to show up and do what they're told, but the big picture isn't shared with them.

We have been at a gym that did not include the gymnast in setting goals, planning, etc and she is now at one that does and the difference in my DD is astounding. Learning cannot happen, no matter how good of a teacher you are, if the learner isn't involved and fully engaged in the whole process.

My dd just hit the double digits in age, but please do not let that fool you or lull you into complacency about her ability to understand what's going on. She is very sharp and she will achieve to a much greater degree if given the opportunity to take some ownership in the process. She is training L8/L9 skills now, so this method seems to really work for her.

 

[Tony Gym Momentum]

I like the article as it makes me reflect our the gyms staffing challenges.

Thoughts this morning:
Today’s world of instant info, instant feedback, and instant action belie the fact that it takes YEARS of experience to provide instant actionable feedback/teaching to a gymnast. The distillation of knowledge and experience into communication to an athlete is truly an art.

I have met and watched and listened to master coaches. I know in our local market of a couple of master coaches who work with USA-G pre-team thru L5 athletes. They are incredibly valuable to their clubs. Master coaches, IMO, may never coach a L7 thru 10 or an elite. They might. They are still invaluable to any team program.

Teaching mastery is of the most important hats of a respected and skilled coach. Teaching comes before coaching, IMO. I see lots of ways to develop "learning teachers/coaches." IMO, mentorship programs are excellent ways to develop staff/self. Teachers/coaches come at different levels of professional development. A business can make them valuable assets by placing them in situations were they can succeed. If I concentrate on upping the teaching/coaching level of myself and the staff around me, we succeed. My team program can be as weak as the weakest team teacher/coach.

BTW: The article links to a bunch of good articles by Mr.Retrosi. I have been enjoying reading a couple this morning.

The above are just some thoughts this morning. Thanks Kandkfunk for the link.
Best wishes, SBG -

Please don't call me Mr. Retrosi- It makes me feel old! Thank you for your thoughts!

 

[Tony Gym Momentum]

I don't think this article has enough detail for me to comment. It basically just says that there is a problem, that currently, there isn't a "class" you can take to become a good coach. and that the only way to solve it is to mentor young coaches. I wish it offered more direct information on what he thinks makes a good coach so that a dialogue could start within the coaching community. I see a lot of parents who are frustrated, but I am not sure that the not-so-good coaches even know they aren't good-if that makes sense.

I teach a course at some congresses called COACHES as EDUCATORS. It has some tips on coaching styles that work and more importantly what YOUR GYMNASTS want and DON'T want in a coach. SPOILER- I am in the process of writing up a follow up with some answers.
Tony

 

[Tony Gym Momentum]

This was a very interesting article to me, especially since DS has this issue exactly.
I HAVE NOT GIVEN UP ON DCOACH!
I believe he CAN cross over and begin to learn how to be a good teacher. He is a great technical coach, not so good with the motivating and there is general team gloominess.

DD coach on the other hand is limited with English, and he is SO beloved by the girls....He says little, but does a great deal for each student. But then he is much older too....3rd coach is a parent so she has more in her toolbox.

If this first coach continues to NOT learn, then he will stay at the current coaching level. If he can learn, then he could become great.

Can being a good teacher be taught?
We will see.

I was just in Iceland teaching a course and a training camp. When I arrived I spoke NO Icelandic. I picked up some by the end of my 2 weeks there. When I left the girls were genuinely sad to see me go. There were tears, hugs and promises that I would be back.
I have a new appreciation for coaches who come to USA and do not speak English.
I also learned to be very efficient with my corrections. I did not (and still do not) speak enough Icelandic to go into long correction. I was efficient. The kids could tell that I had genuine affection for them and appreciation of their effort.
Tony

 

[Deleted member D3987]

deja vu.

btw Tony, you looked handsome all tied up! lol

 

[BlairBob]

Wow, Tony Retrosi is here. Very cool. Pretty sure I have met you over the years at one of the Norcal or National Congresses. Very cool. Icelands sounds really cool as I really want to go there since it got into my head last year (besides seeing Bob Takano and a few other CF coaches go there and have fun).

Dang, now I feel like going back to coach for the rest of my life. Argghh. Darn you, JBS! Paid vacation and being able to travel sounds so dreamy vs basically never taking or affording cool vacations.

I know there is the USAG National Gymnastics College. Whatever they are calling it. I've meant to do it but never got around to it which is dumb since I would have qualified for a whole bunch of their units every year.

Actually Bob Takano has said the same thing about the state of Weightlifting in this country that it pretty much gets down to mentorship and time in/experience.

 

[Tony Gym Momentum]

Wow, Tony Retrosi is here. Very cool. Pretty sure I have met you over the years at one of the Norcal or National Congresses. Very cool. Icelands sounds really cool as I really want to go there since it got into my head last year (besides seeing Bob Takano and a few other CF coaches go there and have fun).

Dang, now I feel like going back to coach for the rest of my life. Argghh. Darn you, JBS! Paid vacation and being able to travel sounds so dreamy vs basically never taking or affording cool vacations.

I know there is the USAG National Gymnastics College. Whatever they are calling it. I've meant to do it but never got around to it which is dumb since I would have qualified for a whole bunch of their units every year.

Actually Bob Takano has said the same thing about the state of Weightlifting in this country that it pretty much gets down to mentorship and time in/experience.

The USAG University is a GREAT start. I teach many of the courses and I encourage all to take the courses. There is a great amount of information.
With all the information it is then important to find a good (or great!) mentor. Someone who is going to help you find your teaching style and become a great communicator.

 

[Aimeemomofagymmie]

More food for thought...

Link Removed

You really do get what you pay for.

I agree however you need to also consider the number of hours that a teacher works outside the classroom, the amount of personal money that they spend as well as all the college classes that they are required to take to keep their teacher's license. I don't think that gymnastic coaches have any of those type of requirements to keep their job. As I watch my DS at practice I see little or no interaction from coaches while they are stretching or doing strength training. I see the coaches conversing with each other with their backs turned or on their cell phones. During practice I see them doing drills, but no corrections being made (just feedback you doing it wrong). It has gotten to the point that my 9year has asked me to tape her routines and then she critics them herself. This lack of interaction would not occur in a classroom. Now if the coaches had a college degree such as coaching degree, or kinesiology. Or they were truly "coaching" t his should definitely be a different pay scale.

 

[Aimeemomofagymmie]

There are pages and pages of exact details...but here it is very simply...



I am working on this exact issue at our club...it is very hard.

On one hand...I can teach and coach fairly well...on the other...

1. I have a coach doing 48 roundoff drills from Youtube and actually teaching nothing...47 of them are being done wrong. The only one that the coach is doing right is the one that they are forgetting to monitor. Over the course of 15 - 20 minutes I could fix all of the stations by eliminating most of them and giving a FOCUS...one thing to work on within those roundoffs...but I would have to walk over there and help the coach out...I am coaching.
2. There is a preschool class jumping in the pit...the coach is young and they are doing it for FUN...what...skip FUN. You could have them use the pit for 101 different things that all would be teaching something...and all would be FUN. YOU DON'T TEACH FUN...YOU HAVE FUN! Most everything that you are teaching should be FUN...so I ask again...what are these kids learning by jumping into the pit. If you cannot tell me...you cannot use the pit...because you are not teaching...you are just letting time pass. Once again I could fix this...but I am coaching...so I don't have time to walk over and tell all the kids to climb in and get a RED cube...I don't have time to ask them what letter BLUE starts with...or how many sides a cube has. Come on...how about this info... Link Removed

Now...I'm coaching and I have two things on the other hand.

Solution...

How about a high level coach to take my spot...and then I go over and TEACH people to TEACH...yes...that is the answer...now look at the amount of money that you are paying to someone that is NOT working directly with the gymnasts...just teaching the coaches.

In reference # 1 this what the parents are seeing. hence they have hard time paying the tuition. When they are paying the same amount of money as the parents of the girls that you are working with.

 

[JBS]

@Tony Gym Momentum Thanks for stopping by...love your site.

As far as all of my comments...yes...I went on a bit of a rant. After paying enough to get coaches to stick around and give the industry a chance...there has to be some sort of training / mentoring system in place. I am finding that asking a few simple questions is helping a bunch...

• Head Coaches...walk up to one of your staff during workout and ask them what they are teaching. Also ask them what the gymnasts are learning.

Many times they will tell you that they are working a skill or combo like RO-BHS with the kids. The kids are just in a line doing RO-BHS. They really believe that doing the RO-BHS over and over is teaching. Help them identify a problem on the fly...help them fix it. Maybe the kids need more turnover in their RO so you are going to focus on the needle kick. Show them how to get immediate results with the correction.

I have been spending so much time trying to figure out the answer to what the article is talking about...that I have been neglecting to teach the coaches. I have not been doing my job. Sure...it's frustrating when you mentor someone for a while and then they leave for another industry that will pay better...but you can't give up.

I am starting to take the time to know what I am teaching the coaches...and I seeing great results...the coaches are learning. The atmosphere is catching...they are learning to teach and they are not only teaching the kids...but each other. It is a work in progress...but it is working.

 

[Aimeemomofagymmie]

@Tony Gym Momentum Thanks for stopping by...love your site.

As far as all of my comments...yes...I went on a bit of a rant. After paying enough to get coaches to stick around and give the industry a chance...there has to be some sort of training / mentoring system in place. I am finding that asking a few simple questions is helping a bunch...

• Head Coaches...walk up to one of your staff during workout and ask them what they are teaching. Also ask them what the gymnasts are learning.

Many times they will tell you that they are working a skill or combo like RO-BHS with the kids. The kids are just in a line doing RO-BHS. They really believe that doing the RO-BHS over and over is teaching. Help them identify a problem on the fly...help them fix it. Maybe the kids need more turnover in their RO so you are going to focus on the needle kick. Show them how to get immediate results with the correction.

I have been spending so much time trying to figure out the answer to what the article is talking about...that I have been neglecting to teach the coaches. I have not been doing my job. Sure...it's frustrating when you mentor someone for a while and then they leave for another industry that will pay better...but you can't give up.

I am starting to take the time to know what I am teaching the coaches...and I seeing great results...the coaches are learning. The atmosphere is catching...they are learning to teach and they are not only teaching the kids...but each other. It is a work in progress...but it is working.

Better than asking the coaches ask the girls... So then the girls can see the connections...better learning experience all around.

 

[JBS]

Better than asking the coaches ask the girls... So then the girls can see the connections...better learning experience all around.

You sound like you know it all?

 

[JBS]

Better than asking the coaches ask the girls... So then the girls can see the connections...better learning experience all around.

How would this help the coaches learn to teach?

 

[JBS]

In reference [HASHTAG]#1[/HASHTAG] this what the parents are seeing. hence they have hard time paying the tuition. When they are paying the same amount of money as the parents of the girls that you are working with.

I would encourage you to find a new gym then.

 

[munchkin3]

I was just in Iceland teaching a course and a training camp. When I arrived I spoke NO Icelandic. I picked up some by the end of my 2 weeks there. When I left the girls were genuinely sad to see me go. There were tears, hugs and promises that I would be back.
I have a new appreciation for coaches who come to USA and do not speak English.
I also learned to be very efficient with my corrections. I did not (and still do not) speak enough Icelandic to go into long correction. I was efficient. The kids could tell that I had genuine affection for them and appreciation of their effort.
Tony

As said previous poster about his Dutch soccer coach, our foreign coach competed for his country and then his country educated him in teaching gymnastics. An actual degree with years of training.
I think in the US there should be a bit more teaching time dedicated to the child psychology involved here. Foreign coach gets it. US coach still is struggling getting through to his students...But as a paying parent i also believe if US coach is given the opportunity and is willing to learn, then he can become that great technician, AND teacher...he may even become 'beloved'.
I also understand it may not be cost effective though.....i don't know where the balance is.

 

[motigymnasticsmom]

I agree however you need to also consider the number of hours that a teacher works outside the classroom, the amount of personal money that they spend as well as all the college classes that they are required to take to keep their teacher's license. I don't think that gymnastic coaches have any of those type of requirements to keep their job. As I watch my DS at practice I see little or no interaction from coaches while they are stretching or doing strength training. I see the coaches conversing with each other with their backs turned or on their cell phones. During practice I see them doing drills, but no corrections being made (just feedback you doing it wrong). It has gotten to the point that my 9year has asked me to tape her routines and then she critics them herself. This lack of interaction would not occur in a classroom. Now if the coaches had a college degree such as coaching degree, or kinesiology. Or they were truly "coaching" t his should definitely be a different pay scale.

find a new gym for ds asap.