Is there such thing as a "semi-elite" gymnastics program?

[misshoneybee]

In our area it seems that there are either elite gyms or gyms that run a decent program but show up to meets looking like the "Bad News Bears". There is nothing in between. My daughter is not an olympic caliber gymnast but she has gymnastics in her heart and works her butt off. She very rarely misses a practice and is currently working out 15 hours a week. The optionals coach has training invitation only training sessions and she is never invited...even though she scores higher than the other L5'ers.

She is training L6 at the age of 11 and was out most of this season due to wrist surgery. She made a very respectable "comeback" and scored a 33.75 in her first and last L5 meet this year - last weekend. She was really disappointed and somewhat embarassed by the scores that the other girls were getting (think 5's and 6's). It really bothers her. Most of those kids don't show up to practice regularly, and/or they don't have the skills and they are moved up a level anyway.

Do elite gyms take kids like her into their programs? Or are they so selective that they wouldn't even look at her due to her age or other reasons?

Interested in hearing your comments

 

[hawaii_gymnast]

If you are not satisfied with the program your daughter is in then you should look at other gyms. The worst they can say is no. And not all gyms that are successful need to be of elite caliber you can find other gyms that have very good JO gymnasts but do not have a elite program or a big one. Look around and find the best fit for your daugther. If she is happy with her program, keep her where she is, if not move. At 11 she should have some say in whether or not she moves to a new gym.
Also a level 5 should not need any more than 15 hours of practice, I am from Canada but my level lines up with skills from 7-9 and I train 12-15 hours a week.

 

[JessLW]

Not all "elite" gyms only train top Olympic calibur gymnasts. Only 5 girls in the whole country will win a spot on the Olympic team, but there are girls that make elite and never go on to any major international competitions, and there are girls who stay at level 10 for many years. Both categories of girls are excellent candidates for college scholarships. Most gyms, even the top gyms, do not put all of their eggs in one basket, focusing their entire program on a couple of kids. They have teams just like anywhere else where the girls are working towards non-Olympic goals. By the same token, like the above poster says, there are plenty of gyms that do not train elites that also have girls who go on to do very well as optional gymnasts.

If your DD is not getting what she wants out of her program, shop around for a new gym. I wouldn't assume that an "elite" gym won't take her, just go and see. If your DD wants a more competitive program (and it sounds like she does, if she is frustrated with how her team is performing) then check out those gyms that you assume are out of reach. Chances are they have "normal" kids in their program too, not just the megasuperstars.

 

[wallinbl]

Go and watch practice at a few of the gyms (without your DD). If you like one or more of them, then have her go and do a trial practice or two.

Not every girl at those good gyms is better than the girls at the other gyms. They just happen to go to a gym that also has some really good gymnasts. For all you know, your DD has untapped talent that a different coach could unleash. Sometimes, it's not that one coach is better than another (though it may be), it's just that the combination of coach and gymnast clicks better. When we switched gyms ~18 months ago, the light bulb went on for DD.

 

[MaryA]

In our state, there are two gyms that are among the best in the country. What I have noticed from seeing these two teams at meets is that one (the "best" in the state, and the most well known) has two very different streams. The first stream are all tiny little girls, all the same age, the same size... everything. They do very very well. The second string girls are older/taller/bigger and they are very much like the "Bad News Bears" you are describing. They only had one 11-year-old gymnast at level 6 States. But the 2nd best gym in the state, and the one that DD's head coach comes from, has plenty of those young, tiny girls but I've also seen plenty of 12+ level 6's, taller gymnasts, etc. and THEY'RE ALL GOOD! Obviously, at that gym, the girls that are not bound for the Olympics/Elite/Div. I have access to the same quality training and are held to the same high standards as those who are. I really admire them for that (even as their gymnasts are crushing ours in competitions ).

If you have other gyms in your area to choose from, go check them out, and look at their "older" gymnasts (crazy sport where a 10-year-old level 5 is old, huh?). Are they second-class citizens, or are great things expected of them? Last year my DD switched from a less serious gym to a more serious gym. It was hard, but she is thriving and has never looked back. Good luck!

 

[misshoneybee]

Thanks so much for you feedback. I have always wondered if the "elite" gym "normal" kids. And Mary A, you hit the nail on the head, my daughter wants to be held to the same standards as an elite gymnast (for the most part - I don't think she wants to train 24 hours a week) and she wants to be with others who show up to practice and take gymnastics seriously. Right now the girls have to have a 31 AA to move a level. So that means that her teammates are moving up even though they are still getting spotted on their back tucks in competition. She came to the conclusion on her own that a 31 is too low and her personal goal is to get a 35 to move levels. I enrolled her in a summer camp at a very nice gym and I am going to have them take a look at her without her knowing. I also hate putting her in a situation where she is "rejected" due to age/height or the fact that she pronates slightly and doesn't have a great turnout. Gymnastics is crazy, my husband and I were both gymnasts and even though it is not fair at times, the judging is a mystery at times - we still love the sport anyway and we are happy to have our daughter find a passion in life. Gymnastics has given her so much confidence and her ability to focus under pressure will serve her well through her childhood and especially as an adult.

Question for the group....Do you think I should just visit practices or can I have a preliminary conversation with the gym first? Or can look on mymeetscores.com to figure out what gyms to put on the short list? The reason I am asking is we live in a large metro area and have quite a few gyms to choose from that are spread apart, and it would be a time consuming process if I went to every gym to view practices. Thanks again all of you for your thoughtful and kind answers.

 

[wallinbl]

Question for the group....Do you think I should just visit practices or can I have a preliminary conversation with the gym first? Or can look on mymeetscores.com to figure out what gyms to put on the short list? The reason I am asking is we live in a large metro area and have quite a few gyms to choose from that are spread apart, and it would be a time consuming process if I went to every gym to view practices. Thanks again all of you for your thoughtful and kind answers.

You've seen them at local meets, right? So, you have somewhat of a starting point. Do you know parents at other gyms? Figure out what you do know about the other gyms and narrow the list down.

I narrowed mine down and then went and watched practice without telling them I was there. I didn't want a sales pitch or anything else - just wanted to see how the coaches were on a regular day. I also listened to the parents who were not really aware that I wasn't from their gym (the preschool classes see a wide variety of kids at many gyms, so it's not like you'll recognize all the parents all the time).

The gym we ended up having DD try didn't really have much to say ahead of time other than telling us to bring her to a few practices. I was surprised by that, but perhaps that's just how it's done. After practice, the head coach came out and talked to us for a while.

 

[misshoneybee]

I have not been to any meets this year with the exception of the meet we did last weekend. And this was the first year (full calendar year) that my DD has been at this gym. She has been having wrist pain for 2 years and finally had surgery on her wrist in December, she has been out pretty much the whole season but going to practice every day (including 3 days after her surgery with her arm in a cast) and has been working on dance, beam, leaps, hotbed work, etc. To make it more difficult - her current gym does meets that are small and not very competitive. Perhaps I can look at mymeetscores to figure out what other gyms may be doing to put together my short list. thank you for your advice when you said that you visited the gyms on the "down-low" I appreciate it - that is good advice.

 

[MaryA]

You could also make a list of questions to ask gyms about the issues that are important to you and email them to the gyms in your area. You can find out a lot about a gym just by the fact that a coach takes the time to get back to you and give you thoughtful answers to your questions.

 

[GymBee97]

Don't just limit your choice to "mymeetscores" scores. That doesn't say everything about a gym. Remember the kids should be in this first for FUN. And not all programs fit all kid's style of learning. That top gym might be where you want your kids but their style of coaching may not be the best for your child. My DD is now at a gym where they are not the top but also are not the bottom, they have up to L10 gymnasts and their L9 and L10 are going on to the national championships. Their style of coaching is perfect for my DD. She has advanced so much in the past few months because the coaching fits how she learns. The 2 gyms in my area that are considered the "teams to beat" (top gyms) - well their style just wouldn't do well at all for my DD. So a "top gym" for me could be very different than a "top gym" for someone else. For me having my DD on a team that places 1st all the time at states etc is not that important. I'm looking for a gym that will be fun for my DD to participate in, has an optional program, coaching staff isn't yelling at gymnasts to get things done, doesn't focus all the time on scores but focuses on individual achievements and isn't at the bottom at meets.

Your discription to me is screaming "we need to find a new gym - this isn't the right fit for my DD".

Go and visit some gyms. If you don't know anything about the ones in your area then make your starting point your home and start by visiting the ones that are closer to home (it will be a better drive for you and there may be girls at the gym she knows from school or the neighborhood which will make a move easier).

Before you go make a list of the things you think you should see at the gyms - your criteria for what you think a "good gym" should be. If you find some that you like then make a visit with your DD for a "lets try a class" visit and see how she likes it.

 

[B&M's mom]

I noticed your location. We live just west of the city. As you say, there are plenty of good gyms in the area. If you want some info on some of them (don't know all of the them), contact me. My oldest switched gyms last year so I've been through the process. Probably the first step is to identify exactly what your daughter wants to do, it sounds like she has a good start on defining that.

 

[iwannacoach]

What is up with that?.....

I'm no authority on the matter of changing gyms or doing what's right for dd's, but I would like to offer some observations in the stark realities of gym life. These are not judgements, but rather a collection of views of the gymnastics world collected over the past 42 years, use them in the most appropriate context for your situation.

The gyms that run decent programs but show up to meets loking like "bad news bears" are not doing fair by their gymnasts and parents. There is plenty of room for children to "aspire" for their own excellence at a "decent" program, and since most kids don't go into sports for the sole purpose of fun, there should be at least a minimum level of achievement available to all participants with-in any program. I can't stand either of the extremes of all fun, and all work, as those extremes can leave the "outsiders" with unfullfilled expectations.


IMO a decent program would include a rec program for fun, and a team program for work in a setting that "allows" fun, with a third program for those who want to take advantage of every opportunity to excell up to the limit of the program's resources. They don't need to have elites in the gym, nor "bozo the Clown" out on the floor working with kids, they just have to have a demonstrated ability to produce able bodied gymnasts in a positive environment. In that context kids can have fun, and a meaningfull training regimine.

The invitation only "uptraining" sessions could be...........Well, a lot of things. I don't want to write a book about this, but it could be there are subtle things taking place that are available to see, but you just haven't been looking through the right pair of "goggles". Here's a "nuance list" in no particular order for you to throw against the wall "to see what sticks":

Coach is trying to "groom" the next generation of hot shots

Coach would like your daughter at these sessions, but doesn't feel comfortable with aspects of her "injury situation"

Coach is trying to get the most "progress" possible with the least amount of energy spent to get his/her results

Young coach unable to see the big picture

DD's physical attributes have placed a limit on coach's view of her potential

The "lucky chosen ones" come from family settings that haven't "bought in" to the gymnastics process and the coach is trying to create "urgency" for them by having extra sessions to prove to the parents just how much these kids would benifit from fuller participation.

Coach and DD aren't clicking

DD has a never ending energy level that interferes with group concentration

Coach and you haven't clicked



Keep in mind that I'm putting these "out there" for your consideration to provoke helpfull reflection on your part. The "answer" is always floating around somewhere in the mist of athletic abilities and parent/coach/gymnast dynamics. Having the answer is just the first step, using it to your DD's avantage is the next.

If you decide that another club is the best option, and feel convinced you can find a good fit with-out dd's input....well, I just don't know, except that my children befuddle me at times. I liked wallinbl's strategey for finding a new club, but I also feel that MMS can help shorten the process of arriving at a short list. When I look at MMS it seems fairly easy to estimate any given club's profile in the competitive arena. When I see results for a particular meet that show multiple gymnasts from a particular gym at the top, say 5 of their 8 optional gymnasts are in the top 20 %, I assume they are "in it to win it", but can "temper" that assumption by looking at the age and history of any of those competitors, as a gymnast who spends 3 years as a Sr at level 7 should have high all around and individual results. If a team looks sucessfull on paper it should be with a blend of ages and levels, and the "history" should show upward mobility for the majority of the gymnasts in that program. You should be able to gleen from MMS the programs that show the level of participation, mobility, and acheivement that best suits your daughter's level of dedication. I wouldn't worry too much about it suiting her "ability/talent" level, as any formula for discovering a gymnast is bound to miss one or more of that gymnast's gifts, and placing them according to assumption leaves them out of the equation.

 

[gym law mom]

One way to begin to narrow down gyms is to decide how far/long you're willing to drive 4-5 times/week. That may eliminate some gyms right away. Stay away from mymeetscores. There was a thread on her recently discussing that their results are limited and sometimes just wrong. Go to your state usag site and look over state meet results for the last few years. You want a gym that finishes in the top 5 or so from L5-10. Then compare those gyms to your optimal driving distance---you may eliminate some other this way.
Certainly contact the mom here who lives in your area---you can get valuable information that doesn't show in meet scores.
Good luck---sounds like your dd needs a change.

 

[misshoneybee]

Thank you so much Iwannacoach - your insight runs deep and this information is valuable in so many ways. It was nice to hear you say:

The gyms that run decent programs but show up to meets loking like "bad news bears" are not doing fair by their gymnasts and parents. There is plenty of room for children to "aspire" for their own excellence at a "decent" program, and since most kids don't go into sports for the sole purpose of fun, there should be at least a minimum level of achievement available to all participants with-in any program. I can't stand either of the extremes of all fun, and all work, as those extremes can leave the "outsiders" with unfullfilled expectations.

Your list of nuances - was especially helpful too. You are right there are so many things that could be going on here. My DD's main concern is whether or not the girls at a new gym would be nice to her. She visited another gym in the past and the girls were terribly exclusionary and did not even look at her or talk to her. Needless to say she said "NO" to that gym. It has been awhile since she has had that experience but I know it is a concern of hers right now. I am not sure how to figure that one out ahead of time.

 

[iwannacoach]

It's a numbers game if you ask me. If you have 3-4 viable gyms you'll be able to find one where the girls arent so "up-tight", and I would view that as a leadership problem on the part of the h/c. It may even be exactly what the h/c wants?????

And thanks for the flattering feed back. I never thought I could be so insightfull.

 

[bookworm]

I wouldn't worry so much about the "will she fit in" with the girls but I know your daughter will worry about that , as mine did when I moved her twice, on my say so. The girls in gyms all love gymnastics and they eventually find their fit... You know in your gut when things aren't going right in the gym and you need to move on .. and it seems like you are at that point now. I would PM B & M's mom ( the poster who's also from Illinois) and pick her brain on gyms in the area. My daughter's been a 10 for a lot of years and the gyms in your area (and by that I mean IL) that I consistently see at JO Nationals are IGI, Phenom, Arena (although I think I heard that it closed this yr) , United Gymnastics Academy and Legacy Elite to name a few...don't know if any of these are close to you but it could get you started...

 

[Deleted member D3987]

Arena was just sold not closed. the former owner is now assistant coach at nebraska. and you forgot Aerial & Energym consistently at nationals also.

 

[bookworm]

Arena was just sold not closed. the former owner is now assistant coach at nebraska. and you forgot Aerial & Energym consistently at nationals also.

Thanks for the clarification on Arena (although I notice some of their top level 10s moved gyms even though it stayed open)...and I didn't forget those other 2 gyms, I just didn't realize they were in Illinois too (my apologies) ...my daughter already thinks I know too much about gymnastics, if I start remembering EVERY gym I saw at JOs, they'll be calling me "Rain Man"!!!

 

[2gymmies]

Arena was just sold not closed. the former owner is now assistant coach at nebraska.

Was that Dan Miller's old gym?

 

[Deleted member D3987]

yes.^^^^^^^^^