NCAA Judging Accuracy in College Gymnastics

[cmg]

I am curious to find out how the judging evaluations have turned out. Will there be a report? From what I know all routines for all divisions of women's gymnastics (D1, D2, and D3) over a 9.0 are videoed and sent in to a review panel to "judge" the judges. My daughter is at a D3 school and there are times when I think the judging is very biased towards certain teams just like at club gymnastics. I feel like this review panel should help eliminate that issue. Does anyone know what is going on with the evaluations? I did read in College Gym News an article comparing accuracy between D1 and D3 but they looked at one routine from each event which is a really small sample size. Any incite into this topic would be great.

 

[JBS]

Can you link to the article from College Gym News?

 

[Pfiga]

I'm not the OP, but here is the link:

Judge’s Inquiry: Which Division Has the Most Accurate Judging?

 

[JBS]

judging is very biased towards certain teams

I would agree with this... or stating it another way... "certain teams get high scores easier".

 

[GYM0M]

I am curious to find out how the judging evaluations have turned out. Will there be a report? From what I know all routines for all divisions of women's gymnastics (D1, D2, and D3) over a 9.0 are videoed and sent in to a review panel to "judge" the judges. My daughter is at a D3 school and there are times when I think the judging is very biased towards certain teams just like at club gymnastics. I feel like this review panel should help eliminate that issue. Does anyone know what is going on with the evaluations? I did read in College Gym News an article comparing accuracy between D1 and D3 but they looked at one routine from each event which is a really small sample size. Any incite into this topic would be great.

IMO, the review panel isn’t going to make any improvement simply because the problem isn’t judging accuracy, it’s judging consistency. I can just about justify every single college score I’ve seen. Even the 10’s that really aren’t. For the most part, scores are accurate within the judge’s discretion which is the only thing the review panel will evaluate. It’s not going to evaluate why Judge A took the full 0.1 per step on a dismount from Team B and only 0.05 per step from Team C in the same meet, much less across conferences, even less across divisions.

 

[cmg]

IMO, the review panel isn’t going to make any improvement simply because the problem isn’t judging accuracy, it’s judging consistency. I can just about justify every single college score I’ve seen. Even the 10’s that really aren’t. For the most part, scores are accurate within the judge’s discretion which is the only thing the review panel will evaluate. It’s not going to evaluate why Judge A took the full 0.1 per step on a dismount from Team B and only 0.05 per step from Team C in the same meet, much less across conferences, even less across divisions.

Thanks for your reply and thoughts. What I have seen at some of the D3 meets is sometimes pretty big differences from judges on the same routine, lots of different start values, and sometimes questionable high scores. I realize in D1 that might be less noticeable, especially with the top teams/athletes. I am just hoping that there is a published report on what the findings were, good, bad, or ugly. I know it is hard to judge in real time with no play backs or slow motion to review, and it is easy for someone to look at a routine after the fact with the ability to stop a video or look in slow motion and say these deductions should have been taken. It is also easy to blame the judges sometimes and gymnasts especially just have to focus on good gymnastics. Everyone gets a score that might be too low or high during their season.

 

[Gigi]

The scoring is ridiculous, not only between meets, but between teams at the same meet, even between gymnasts within the same team.

At one recent conference meet, the athlete who won the beam had a 9.95 but had a big wobble with form break at least bent over approx. 45 degrees to the side. It should be at least .1 for the bend, probably other deductions like shoulder dip, extra arm swing, etc. but at a minimum .1 deduction. I mean, fans gasped fearing she was going to fall. And she got 9.95. To me, 9.95 should be pretty much perfect. That routine won the meet. It is not fair to lesser known gymnasts at less popular teams, especially when they are the visiting team.

This is one example, but there are many examples every week.

 

[JBS]

even between gymnasts within the same team

100%

 

[cmg]

The scoring is ridiculous, not only between meets, but between teams at the same meet, even between gymnasts within the same team.

At one recent conference meet, the athlete who won the beam had a 9.95 but had a big wobble with form break at least bent over approx. 45 degrees to the side. It should be at least .1 for the bend, probably other deductions like shoulder dip, extra arm swing, etc. but at a minimum .1 deduction. I mean, fans gasped fearing she was going to fall. And she got 9.95. To me, 9.95 should be pretty much perfect. That routine won the meet. It is not fair to lesser known gymnasts at less popular teams, especially when they are the visiting team.

This is one example, but there are many examples every week.

Thanks for this. I am trying not to be "that parent" that complains about scoring every time her kid gets a low score. But at one duel meet (D3) my daughter had a very clean floor routine and got a 9.5. It seemed low to me but I thought ok the judges are being tough, fair enough. Three of her teammates also had good routines and all got 9.5's. That seemed a little weird but what the heck. D3 scores tend to have a higher scoring range than D1. The host team got scores all higher than 9.55 (except one girl who fell and still got a 9.125) and the girl that won got 9.825 with all of the other girls on the team scoring between 9.6+ and 9.75. Now maybe the girl that won deserved the 9.825 and my daughter's team did not, but to have the highest score for a visiting team with everyone starting from a 10.0 be 9.5 just seemed odd. I would say most of the girls on my daughter's team who got the 9.5's generally scored 9.6 or higher at other meets.

Interestingly, at Regionals, six days later, my daughter had a very similar floor routine as this duel meet, maybe slightly better like a .1 better on her leaps etc. and she got a 9.8. She outscored every floor routine from the team they had just competed against 6 days before. She was thrilled she got a career high on her floor and I feel like she really deserved the score, but the issue is when they take season average scores to figure out who qualifies for Nationals and you have biased judging the same teams and individuals keep getting to go to Nationals.

I feel like NCAA is at least acknowledging that there is a problem, I just hope this report sheds some light and they can create a plan to help fix the issue. I also hope that they share the results. Thanks for everyone's thoughts.

 

[JessSyd]

I can't watch NCAA gymnastics anymore because it seems almost pointless - more like entertainment than sport because the scores only have a vague correlation to the performance.

As a judge, you are supposed to apply the full range of deductions available to you in a consistent way across a competition. You cannot reward a truly great routine unless you are taking the deductions in the nearly-great routines. It waters down the value of a perfect ten, because now that can mean anything from absolutely amazing, to nearly stuck everything. There isn't anything even close enough to a separation of performance in the scores being handed out by NCAA judges.

 

[JBS]

more like entertainment than sport

I wouldn't say it's that far. Bottom line though... it's become much more popular. The average non-gymnastics person can watch it and have fun... it is entertaining. It's definitely driving enrollment into gyms.

 

[cmg]

Increasing the popularity of college gymnastics especially at the D1 level with all the super talented athletes is a good thing for the whole gymnastics community. The inconsistent judging will however drive them away. I know when meets are on the main sports channels and even NBC, the announcers do try to explain connections, and other basic technical requirements for scoring but it takes a long time to really see those types of deductions. It NCAA does publish a report and I find it, or if College Gym News does another analysis or discussion I will try to post it.