WAG L4 mobility score

[mommyof1]

Are you sure that they are maximizing their medal count? Why would a gym be that invested in medals for level 4s?

I just found it odd that they chose to split their team across two sessions when they could easily have kept their team together. This gym tends to score high at the compulsory levels, so if those kids had all been in the first session the score distribution for that session would have been different. That's all.

 

[TumbleTimes4]

It’s good marketing to have a high medal count and successful gym program. Parents who know nothing about the sport that are looking to sign their kids up for classes will probably pick the most “successful looking” gym.

 

[TumbleTimes4]

In the meets we have been to thus far in the season, not counting the kids who scratched a couple events, it looks like 20% are scoring less than a 33, and it’s usually from the same gyms.

While I’m not sure if there is an official policy at our gym, it seems like they don’t move our girls up to the next level or allow them to compete unless they are confident that they can meet the mobility score in the first couple meets. DD has been hitting in the 35 range consistently. After watching other girls struggle I’m thankful they do this. They don’t sandbag by any means but they are scoring well enough to have some success. I think it’s good for their confidence and helpful for building good foundations for the next level.

 

[Deleted member 18037]

I checked again, and there was another partial session of L4 that scored much higher. (Appears that the host gym split its team across two sessions to maximize its medal count.) So the overall “pass rate” was 71% across both sessions. Better than 60%, but it still seems low at this point in the season in a system that is designed to progress most kids one level per year.

I don't know that the system was "designed" to progress one level per year.

L1, 2 and 3 are not required. Level 6 is not required. And you have the ability to score out of any level, So you can (and kids do) do L4-L7 in a year.

Again, you don't have to start competing in the JO stream until L4. So a kid should have the basics of the level pretty much ready to go at L4.

The mobility score changed after mine was in optionals so I didn't really pay much attention because compulsories is off my radar.

So for curiosity I took a look at all our L4s at our gym (L4 from this USAG cycle). We are a low hour gym. L4s do 9 or 12 hours, 9 is minimum, you can sign up for 12). We are also a small gym so we are talking about 30-40 kids. Almost all got scores higher then 34 at all meets. The few who did not never got a score lower then mid 32s, and only 1 girl never got a 34. She is currently a L7. Back when she did 4 NY had Early States the first week in Feb, she was getting high 33s, just missing 34 but I have no doubt had she continued L4 until spring states she would of gotten over 34. She just moved on like the rest of the team did.

 

[gymgal]

I checked again, and there was another partial session of L4 that scored much higher. (Appears that the host gym split its team across two sessions to maximize its medal count.)

This can happen for various reasons - just to name a few: large team that they didn't want to separate into two different events (only one or two coaches available for that session); the gym might have an A and B team that they didn't want competing against each other; separated the team by age and placed them in separate sessions as a result; being the host gym, they may not have had enough volunteers for the meet if they placed the whole level in one session. It could be they wanted to maximize the medal count as well. Hard to know without knowing anything about the gym, but that seems awfully petty. More likely to be a more innocent explanation.

 

[Peachy88]

I do think that the JO 3 vaults and bars are not helpful for transitioning to level 4. Our new gym does Xcel Silver to level 4 which makes a lot more sense. They do a front handspring vault over the sideways mat stack and the bars are much shorter and almost all skills lead to level 4 skills. This gives them more time to uptrain the kip. Spending hours and hours trying to get a front hip and a mill circle perfect seems less constructive to me. Even the floor seems more advantageous except the choreography. The routines look slow to me and I imagine level 4 is pretty shocking in that manner, but as others have said, most girls struggle bars and vault.

 

[Jard.the.gymnast]

Even the floor seems more advantageous except the choreography

Just curious, could you use the level 4 choreography with different skills in Xcel silver?

 

[TumbleTimes4]

I understand that the mill circle and front hip circle are never used again, but don’t they still serve a purpose? I could be completely wrong in this, but don’t they teach the gymnast how to shift their wrists for harder skills later?

 

[CLgym]

Just curious, could you use the level 4 choreography with different skills in Xcel silver?

^^ I have no idea what the "official" rule is regarding this, but when my DD was Xcel Bronze (old gym) her entire group used the L3 compulsory routines for both floor and beam -- including the L3 tumbling/acro -- except that those L3 routines had to be cut and modified slightly to fit within the shorter Bronze time limits. They competed the L1 bars routine (no front hip circle/no mill circle), and then the Bronze vault (which is the same the as the L3 vault). The Xcel Silver girls with whom my DD trained used and competed the L4 compulsory routines for floor, beam and bars. We never saw any other gym do this though. (ETA: This gym did have a JO program too -- but used Xcel as a sort of JO "B" team.)

 

[Jard.the.gymnast]

I understand that the mill circle and front hip circle are never used again, but don’t they still serve a purpose? I could be completely wrong in this, but don’t they teach the gymnast how to shift their wrists for harder skills later?

They do help those things, but wrist shift and forward elements can be taught in a lot of different ways. Mill circles and front hip circles are just one of those many ways, some coaches and kids prefer other methods

 

[Peachy88]

I understand that the mill circle and front hip circle are never used again, but don’t they still serve a purpose? I could be completely wrong in this, but don’t they teach the gymnast how to shift their wrists for harder skills later?

Notice I didn’t say they serve no purpose. I said that they do not help with the transition to level 4 bars as much as working on kips would in my opinion.

 

[coachmolly]

I understand that the mill circle and front hip circle are never used again, but don’t they still serve a purpose? I could be completely wrong in this, but don’t they teach the gymnast how to shift their wrists for harder skills later?

In theory, that's why they are there. But they are not continued afterwards and can be taught in other ways. Ask any level 5+ kid to show a level 3 bar routine and the result is typically laughable. Lots of things can be done in the gym to teach gymnasts how to shift without the exception of them being competition worthy. So it's not working the front hip & mill circle, but rather the emphasis on them in order to score well in level 3 and how much time that takes away from drilling things like kips & tap swings that they will need for level 4.

 

[Dahlia]

I understand that the mill circle and front hip circle are never used again, but don’t they still serve a purpose? I could be completely wrong in this, but don’t they teach the gymnast how to shift their wrists for harder skills later?

I was told the wrist shift for the mill circle was justified because they do need to do it later (but not until something like level 8). Seeing as how so few girls actually end up sticking with gym through level 8, it seems ridiculous to justify it based on that.

 

[John]

My two cents is the same as its always been. I call shananigans on mobility scores. Conditioning and skill acquisition should determine level advancement.

As I watch my daughter progress this sport and I view the giant scope of gymnastics from Level 3-10 what becomes apparent is Hard work, desire, strength, and flexibility are the requirements to gain levels and chase dreams. If your gymnast has those traits they will be successful. If their coach can develop confident athletes they can be successful. An athletes struggles in level 3 or 4 or 5 will be memories long forgotten should they stay in the sport and achieve higher optional levels.

My take away is do not sweat the small stuff as each year there are only larger and larger hurdles.

 

[TumbleTimes4]

Notice I didn’t say they serve no purpose. I said that they do not help with the transition to level 4 bars as much as working on kips would in my opinion.

In theory, that's why they are there. But they are not continued afterwards and can be taught in other ways. Ask any level 5+ kid to show a level 3 bar routine and the result is typically laughable. Lots of things can be done in the gym to teach gymnasts how to shift without the exception of them being competition worthy. So it's not working the front hip & mill circle, but rather the emphasis on them in order to score well in level 3 and how much time that takes away from drilling things like kips & tap swings that they will need for level 4.

Those two skills gave my DD so much grief that I was hoping there was actual value in them and would justify the time spent later down the road. I’m guessing there isn’t really a skill they could perform that would lead into a kip, much like the silver vault to level 4 vault?

 

[TumbleTimes4]

My two cents is the same as its always been. I call shananigans on mobility scores. Conditioning and skill acquisition should determine level advancement.

I think I’m going to respectfully disagree with you here. Like I posted earlier, I saw a lot of girls that technically have the skills, but they were not clean and some were not performed very safely. I think if level requirements were just based on having certain skills, that would potentially open the door to coaches rushing girls through levels that they have no business doing. There is a big difference between being able to do a skill, and being able to do it cleanly and safely. I agree with mobility scores. I think they help keep the gymnast safe against too aggressive coaching. If they can’t attain the mobility score, then there is no point in rushing the girls to work skills they may not be ready for. It also makes them focus on and work on the skills in that level to clean them up so they can achieve a score. It’s not perfect, but I believe overall it serves a good purpose.

I know you detest compulsories, but the skills required in level 4 (kips, handspring vault, leaps, etc.) seem to be needed to build a good foundation for optional routines. It makes sense that there should be some national way to measure that in a program to make sure that they are developing that needed foundation. I know success in compulsories do not equal success in optional. My DD is scoring in the high 35s at the moment. She is not sweeping podiums, but she is enjoying some success and her mobility score gives me confidence as a parent who is still relatively new to this sport that she is being taught correctly and being given a good foundation to build off of.

 

[John]

Very good points.

I like to think that the good coaches will rise to the top and the coaches with poor decision making will ultimately drop out. I hate to think that rules have to be put in place to protect us from the offenders. Offenders should be removed without the need to make more and more rules.

We disagree but I respect your thoughts and opinions.

 

[Jard.the.gymnast]

Those two skills gave my DD so much grief that I was hoping there was actual value in them and would justify the time spent later down the road. I’m guessing there isn’t really a skill they could perform that would lead into a kip, much like the silver vault to level 4 vault?

Oh there is. They are just not skills to easily put in routines. Also the difference between how a kip is taught are huge between coaches. I really like a run up kip or run up jam kip, i know another coach in my club hates them

 

[3rd_time_around]

Now that the L4 mobility score has been 34.0 for nearly two seasons, how do you all think it's working out in practice? Our L4 state meet is just a few weeks away, and I am still seeing large numbers of kids score below 34.0. At my daughter's most recent meet, 40 percent of the L4 girls who competed all four events failed to score 34.0 or above.

If we accept that a 34.0 is a valid and reliable indicator that the child has mastered the L4 skills on all four events and is prepared to be successful at L5, the fact that so many kids are not demonstrating mastery this late in the season makes me wonder whether L3 is adequately preparing kids for L4. Perhaps the leap from L3 to L4 is just too big.

The two events I wonder most about are vault and bars. Vault is by far the weakest event for my daughter's team. A few of the bigger, springier, and more naturally talented kids seem to have picked up the FHS vault largely by osmosis, but for most of the kids it's a real challenge. Many of them are routinely scoring in the 7's, and it's pretty scary to watch. It seems as if there should be an intermediate step between the L3 handstand flatback on the mat and the FHS over the table. Maybe L4 should have a handstand flatback onto a mat behind the table? Adding the timers in L6 and L7 to bridge the gap between the FHS and the flipping vaults seems like such a logical move--should there be something similar at L3 or L4 to make the introduction to the FHS more gradual?

Bars also seems like a huge leap from L3 to L4. Again, a couple of kids on my daughter's team who just have a natural inclination for bars were able to make the transition without too much difficulty, but for the most part even the kids who did well on bars in L3 are having a lot of difficulty at L4. The ones who competed a kip in L3 seem to have the easiest time, but it's hard to tell in which direction causation runs. Are these kids doing better at L4 bars because they had more time to perfect their kips in L3, or were they able to get their kips early in L3 because they are just naturally better at bars?

Honestly, as a parent all of this makes me think it would be better not to compete L3 at all and instead focus on training for L4. My daughter's gym forces nearly everyone to compete two seasons of L3, and then many of them still do poorly at L4 and are forced to repeat. The fact that kids from many other gyms are also scoring below 34.0 makes me think it's a systemic issue and not just a gym-specific problem with L3 coaching. Thoughts?

GA AAU has addressed this pretty well. The level 3 girls vault front handspring on the table to flat back, the level 3 bars eliminated the stride circle and FHC, and does a BHC cast squat-on jump to long hang pullover, counter swing, tap swing, counter swing straight drop dismount. At a recent large meet in the state, only 9 out of 63 girls who competed AA failed to score a 34.00, and the ones who didn't scored 33.00+. Now, not all of them competed GA AAU, but many did. USAG does need a better bridge from 3 to 4 in my opinion. I'm very happy my level 3 is already on the high bar. She scored a 37.350 at her second meet, with a 9.35 on bars.

 

[3rd_time_around]

In 2021 the level 3 vault is changing to a vault over a sideways mat stack.

Link Removed

The kip on bars is just one of those skills that will be hard no matter when it is introduced and there is not really a good intermediary move to get to it.

I understand that the mill circle and front hip circle are never used again, but don’t they still serve a purpose? I could be completely wrong in this, but don’t they teach the gymnast how to shift their wrists for harder skills later?

our gym competes AAU 1-3, and there is no Mill circle or FHC, and our optional skill have never had a problem learning to shift their wrists for the skills that need it.