Women L8 - Composition Deductions and New Cs

[vagymmomma]

I looked back at some of the old threads before the optional requirements were finalized and was curious about a couple schools of thought. First, has there been any discussion at some of the training conferences whether judges should be looking to take additional deductions for those gymnasts who aren't including a C? The C skills are technically optional and will count as a B, but I'm wondering how hard gymnasts should focus on adding them? Could there be any other deduction besides the composition deduction to account for this difference? Assuming DD moves to L8 (she thinks she is, but no official word for another 4 - 6 weeks), she'll compete a doubleback dismount on bars so has a C there. Before the rules were finalized, she was working on her BT on beam (was doing on the high beam though not consistently landing it). She has a lot of B's currently available so she doesn't need the BT and has not been working it much. Just curious whether to encourage her to keep at it in summer practice open gym. And similarly on the composition deduction, how important is to have forward and backward tumbling on B at level 8? She can do a FWO, but it's not as consistent as some of her backward tumbling. Again, I think she has enough Bs without it. Would a FLO or FP dismount get credit for forward tumbling? Thanks as always for your thoughts. I'm sure the coaches know what they're doing -- just trying to understand some of the logic.

 

[profmom]

If it's anything like the boys after they had everything change last year, this year will see a lot of trial and error and some inconsistency on the judging side. I wouldn't worry about it, and I'd encourage your DD to talk to her coaches about what they think she should prioritize. It will be what it will be. My guess, though, is that the constant that a clean simple routine will beat a sloppy routine with higher level skills will remain a constant.

 

[vagymmomma]

profmom - Thank you for your thoughts. To be clear, I'm not worried - just curious. I'm new to L8 and I've heard it's judged differently from L7 with routine content mattering more than it has in the past. So I was just trying to understand that better. Obviously a gymnast wants a clean routine, but I thought the difficulty and content started to matter more.

I leave all coaching to the people who know what they're doing, but my DD always asks me what she should work on at open gym. It seems like every couple practices she's trying new skills, so it's not a matter of uptraining or progression. But if it means something to work on more Cs, then I can offer that as a suggestion. The team practice includes 90 minutes of supervised open gym each week in the summer and the coaches generally don't like to tell them what to do with their time (they want the gymmies to work on what they want to and to understand themselves where they should be focusing).

 

[fuzi]

You are right that routine content matters more in L8 than in L7. In L8 and up, routine composition is judged.

I'm a judge, and thus far, I don't get the feeling that "optional Cs" are going to affect judging much, but I'll have to see how things pan out after regional congress and the first season with the rules.

I do know that L8s will continue to be hit with composition deductions on bars for a lack of elements that pass through vertical. In other words, even if they can get their "A"s and "B"s with clear hips to clear support and the like, they need to show several vertical positions to avoid the "up to 0.20 for lack of elements that achieve vertical."

On BB, they will need to show acro elements in both directions as well as a balance between acro and dance elements. It's problematic if they have C dance elements, but only A acro elements. There is also a deduction for "acro not up to competitive level" with the difficulty seen at regionals as the standard. I am not sure how we are going to apply this deduction now, though my thought is that a C acro element is optional. I would however, take some deduction for anyone not connecting two B flight elements, as that is almost obligatory at regionals (BHS + BHS or the like).

The concerns on floor are similar to on beam. She needs to show saltos in different directions, Bs (or Cs) of both dance and tumblind, and several tumbling passes with B elements.

 

[fuzi]

And similarly on the composition deduction, how important is to have forward and backward tumbling on B at level 8? Would a FLO or FP dismount get credit for forward tumbling?

Assuming you mean beam here.
She loses 0.10 if she doesn't have a forward/sideward element on the beam. Often gymnasts get more in deductions by doing the forward element than by losing it. A cartwheel or roundoff into a dismount fills this requirement.

If the dismount (like a front pike or front layout) is her only sideward/forward element, she loses 0.05 in composition. Not huge at all and may be worth taking the deduction rather than adding a wobbly skill.

 

[my4buffaloes]

"I do know that L8s will continue to be hit with composition deductions on bars for a lack of elements that pass through vertical. In other words, even if they can get their "A"s and "B"s with clear hips to clear support and the like, they need to show several vertical positions to avoid the "up to 0.20 for lack of elements that achieve vertical.""

So how do you make sure you have enough elements that pass through vertical? Does it matter which bar?

 

[Luvs2coach]

Be sure to make all cast HS within 10degrees of vertical- giant- clear hip to HS- and pivot. Then all elements besides kips and dismount are passing through vertical.

 

[my4buffaloes]

So my dd's series at level 7 was a CW/RO on beam. She is now working on her BHS. Would it work for her to still do the CW/RO series and then a BHS separately? Plus then do a CW/BT dismount? She is hoping for the BHS/BHS series, but who knows if she will get it in time. She is unable to do the BWO due to back problems.

 

[fliptwisttwirl]

Yes a BHS isn't a requirement. Just an acro series with atleast one flight. The cartwheel round off fulfills that. The BHS will just count as one of her B's.

 

[Luvs2coach]

So my dd's series at level 7 was a CW/RO on beam. She is now working on her BHS. Would it work for her to still do the CW/RO series and then a BHS separately? Plus then do a CW/BT dismount? She is hoping for the BHS/BHS series, but who knows if she will get it in time. She is unable to do the BWO due to back problems.

Yes. Level 7 does not receive composition deductions, so the BHS would be her 2nd B skill (from the skills you listed).

Just for further conversation...
IF this was for a level 8 athlete several things would be at risk/deductions due to compositional deductions:
Too many sideward elements vs fwd/bck acro and series not up to level of competition.

Keep encouraging the 2 flight series. BHS, BHS will be valuable to her in the future. Good Luck to your DD.

 

[Luvs2coach]

Yes a BHS isn't a requirement. Just an acro series with atleast one flight. The cartwheel round off fulfills that. The BHS will just count as one of her B's.

Level 7 series does not need an element with flight. Series can be with or without flight.

 

[my4buffaloes]

Thank you! She is working on Level 8 skills now and hoping to compete L8 in the fall. Getting close on almost all the skills, I think the BHS on beam might hold her back though, since she can't do the natural progression of BWO/BHS to get to the BHS/BHS. She is trying though!

 

[my4buffaloes]

Just for further conversation...
IF this was for a level 8 athlete several things would be at risk/deductions due to compositional deductions:
Too many sideward elements vs fwd/bck acro and series not up to level of competition.

Keep encouraging the 2 flight series. BHS, BHS will be valuable to her in the future. Good Luck to your DD.

How many fwd/bck skills do they have to have? I thought my dd said either the CW or RO could count for fwd or bcd, depending on what you need. We are obviously still trying to figure it out! Does the dismount back tuck count as a bcd skill? The walkovers really hurt her back, so she is avoiding them, but I can see how they would help fulfill requirements. Thanks for the help!

 

[Luvs2coach]

As a level 7 there are no compositional deductions. Therefore what your daughter is working will not receive deduction due to choice of elements (heavy on side).

As a level 8 there are composition deductions. Athletes must do choreography in all ways & use the full length of the beam. In addition, athletes will need a fwd/side element. Typically, level 8 athletes are already moving backward in the series (BHS,BHS). If not, then they will need a backward moving element. Keep in mind this compositional deduction is only -0.1. So, if the athlete can not do a very clean front walkover, for example, it is best to omit the fwd moving element rather than accumulate more deduction. A cartwheel or round off dismount will fulfill this requirement.

Your athlete's coach(es) should be educated with the code. There are a few changes this year with the new code. One of the more important areas, in my opinion is brining us back to (hopefully) having more artistic gymnastics.

In all beam & floor routines it is important to have "entertainment value" moreso than in previous years. The judges now have more room to take deductions in this category. From friends that are current national rated judges, this is a large are of emphasis during their trainings.

Good coaches will study the code, just as the judges are, to ensure the best for their athletes.

As a parent, it is great to seek info, but hopefully you trust your athlete(s) coaches. I would just drop them an email asking what the requirements are. If you simply say you are inquiring to be knowledgeable about what your daughter is working toward, they should be receptive. I know I am. I also appreciate parents coming directly to me for information. Sometimes, other parents have the best intentions, but are not fully knowledgeable in answering questions.

 

[my4buffaloes]

Thanks so much Luvs2coach! I totally trust the coaches. They know what she needs for sure. Dd and I are just trying to figure out the details and what she needs to work towards to compete level 8. She hasn't asked the coaches for all the specifics and I am not going to bother them yet. We are so far from competition season, I will wait and see how it goes. I think beam will be the sticking point for her because she has almost everything she needs already for the other events. We will see! I am learning as we go here, but figure I might as well try since I have 2 girls in gymnastics. Thanks for your help!

 

[profmom]

Do your coaches ever talk about this with the girls? Ours seem to -- DD says that once she's got a few more things nailed on beam (HS-BHS or at this point even BWO-BHS, she's going to start working more seriously on her FWO). She is pretty sure that if all goes well, her L7 routine will involve a HS- or BWO-BHS, a FWO, and a RO-back tuck dismount. Likewise, beloved DS, who just finished a year of L5, already knows he will have a German giant in his L8 routine!

 

[LemonLime]

Do L8 gymnasts now have to do two circling elements? Like 2 clearhips or 1 clearhip + 1 stalder?

 

[Luvs2coach]

Only 1 - 3,6,7 is required on bars for level 8.

 

[LemonLime]

Only 1 - 3,6,7 is required on bars for level 8.

Ok. I saw this in L7 and became confused:


2. & 3.



Two

360° clear circling elem.

,


Same or different





-


one must be a B



-

one from Group
3, 6, or 7

 

[Luvs2coach]

Level 7:
You must have 2 - 360 circling elements. One of these must be a 3,6,7- (most 7s typically use a clear hip to fulfill this requirement )
As a level 7 if you giant & clear hip, you fulfill the requirements for the 2- 360 circling elements. However, technically you could do 2 clear hips and also still fulfill the requirement.

Level 8-
1 element 3,6,7
clear hip, toe on toe off, stalder all fulfill this requirement

1 element with flight or with 1/2 turn
-straddle back is typically used if choosing to do flight OR the pivot is most commonly used.