WAG Level 4 much harder than 3?

[amiandjim]

L4 is much harder than L3... L4 is really the first useful level in the JO system. L3 is just way to aggressive to be useful.

This is why we are no longer competing L2 or L3. All of our athletes will start with the Xcel program... as they move toward Gold... the ones that are committed and mentally / physically able will have the option to compete L4. This system will keep us from getting stuck in the win... win... win mentality of compulsory gymnastics too early.

We don't need to win at the low levels... we need to do very vague things like...

• Learn to learn
• Learn to train

Once we can do the above two... then we can get into other things like...

• Train to train
• Train to win

Aggressive L3 makes L4 much harder... athletes that train straight to L4 are better off in my opinion.

I’m curious what you mean by aggressive? Just the competitions and focus on winning? I do agree it’s becoming a little crazy with the focus on super high scores. We routinely see girls repeating level 3 when they scored 36-37.5 their first year! And yes, I realize some girls absolutely need to repeat level 3, but not to the extent we see in our area.

 

[SMH]

I’m curious what you mean by aggressive? Just the competitions and focus on winning? I do agree it’s becoming a little crazy with the focus on super high scores. We routinely see girls repeating level 3 when they scored 36-37.5 their first year! And yes, I realize some girls absolutely need to repeat level 3, but not to the extent we see in our area.

Also curious what you mean by aggressive- are you referring to the movements? Or the way it’s used? Level 3 is huge where we live.

 

[3rd_time_around]

My daughter is competing GA AAU Level 3. It is such a better progression to level 4. There is no mill circle. They start the Level 3 bar routine the same, but after the BHS, its cast-squat on, jump to high bar, long hang pullover, tap swings to straight drop. By the time they get to 4, they've competed/trained a whole season of squat ons and jumping to the high bar.

They also vault onto the table at level 3, which just makes more sense than another year of mat-only vaulting.
AAU sometimes, gets looked down on as easier or rec, but it is actually a better progression (at least in GA) than USAG. It is highly competitive and very technically trained. The scoring is the same, except for the few exceptions where some things cannot be judged, like the run approach to vault, and they can use an air board or a spring board on vault.

For these reasons, I never really thought level 3 - level 4 was such a huge jump.

 

[Deleted member 18037]

.....but after the BHS, its cast-squat on,.

BHS on the bar???

 

[John]

I read that as Back Hip Circle. I replaced the S.

 

[JBS]

I’m curious what you mean by aggressive? Just the competitions and focus on winning? I do agree it’s becoming a little crazy with the focus on super high scores. We routinely see girls repeating level 3 when they scored 36-37.5 their first year! And yes, I realize some girls absolutely need to repeat level 3, but not to the extent we see in our area.

Been trying to figure out how to describe this... so here goes...

There is a very aggressive drive to win at L3. Each year more and more clubs are pushing their scoring standards up at the lower levels. Winning is very mentally demanding for a young athlete. Winning at L3 is not required to be an upper level gymnast... L3 is not required to be an upper level gymnast.

We are developing our own system to use at our club... but it is very similar to the Canadian "Sport for Life" model...

Many people look at this model and say... "The ages don't work for gymnastics." I would say... "Are you sure the ages don't work... for the average athlete?" Check out the website... http://sportforlife.ca/qualitysport/long-term-athlete-development/

Now how about that crazy 9 year old that can rock toe blind to Jaeger on bars... are they really mentally beyond "yellow"... or are they just super physically talented? Just because they are a 10 year old L9 doesn't mean that they are mentally ready to handle the same demands as a 15 year old L9. Physically... maybe... mentally... be careful.

It works the other way too... what if you have a 15 year overclocked to L10 (meaning they really should be a L9)? Now you have them prepared to fail if you are telling them "purple". Now if it's a learning year and you are still telling them "light blue" or "green"... ok... that might work.

It does not mean that athletes can't win until "purple". Most athletes actually do much better when the focus in not just winning.

Much of this just depends on how you define each stage. The important part is the concept. Like I said... we are developing our own model. That is due to the fact that some of this model doesn't quite work for us... but it's very close.

Replace orange... yellow... green... and light blue with "Train to Win" and you can see how that would get exhausting. Some crazy parents/coaches even replace "red" with "Train to Win".

 

[amiandjim]

I totally get what you are saying! And I agree with you, it’s becoming insane.

 

[RTT2]

Been trying to figure out how to describe this... so here goes...

There is a very aggressive drive to win at L3. Each year more and more clubs are pushing their scoring standards up at the lower levels. Winning is very mentally demanding for a young athlete. Winning at L3 is not required to be an upper level gymnast... L3 is not required to be an upper level gymnast.

We are developing our own system to use at our club... but it is very similar to the Canadian "Sport for Life" model...

View attachment 7282

Many people look at this model and say... "The ages don't work for gymnastics." I would say... "Are you sure the ages don't work... for the average athlete?" Check out the website... http://sportforlife.ca/qualitysport/long-term-athlete-development/

Now how about that crazy 9 year old that can rock toe blind to Jaeger on bars... are they really mentally beyond "yellow"... or are they just super physically talented? Just because they are a 10 year old L9 doesn't mean that they are mentally ready to handle the same demands as a 15 year old L9. Physically... maybe... mentally... be careful.

It works the other way too... what if you have a 15 year overclocked to L10 (meaning they really should be a L9)? Now you have them prepared to fail if you are telling them "purple". Now if it's a learning year and you are still telling them "light blue" or "green"... ok... that might work.

It does not mean that athletes can't win until "purple". Most athletes actually do much better when the focus in not just winning.

Much of this just depends on how you define each stage. The important part is the concept. Like I said... we are developing our own model. That is due to the fact that some of this model doesn't quite work for us... but it's very close.

Replace orange... yellow... green... and light blue with "Train to Win" and you can see how that would get exhausting. Some crazy parents/coaches even replace "red" with "Train to Win".

Interesting. Some of this is what I was getting at in the "Recreating WAG" thread I started a while back. The current model in the US works well for a small few, but could it be reimagined to work better for developing athletes? Thanks for sharing this!

 

[LJL07]

Now how about that crazy 9 year old that can rock toe blind to Jaeger on bars... are they really mentally beyond "yellow"... or are they just super physically talented? Just because they are a 10 year old L9 doesn't mean that they are mentally ready to handle the same demands as a 15 year old L9. Physically... maybe... mentally... be careful.

This x1000 @JBS . And when will parents and coaches alike get this?! Parents think because they have a 38 scoring level 2 or 3 that their kid is going to be a phenomenal level 10. I don't believe you can tell from level 3 or even 4 or 5 if ANY child will make it to level 10. Many children can be successful at the compulsory levels with tons of repetition and good coaching but aren't necessarily going to be great at the optional levels. And on the flip side, I have seen first hand some physically talented children who were "pushed up" to level 8 or so at 8 or 9 years old and they were definitely not mentally ready to handle the demands, and that is why they have all quit. Had they progressed at a more reasonable pace, I wonder if they would still be doing the sport.

 

[JBS]

Sorry to totally derail this thread... but here it is...

Link Removed

 

[JBS]

And here is the model that Canada built specific for gymnastics...

Link Removed

Interesting... I have never seen this before.

 

[jessifrostR]

It is definitely much harder! I didn’t realize it until Just recently. My daughter is a level 3 and I thought wow level 3 is so easy and she has all of her level 4 skills so why compete 3? In my mind, she has the skills so why not move up to level 4? But now I realize there is so much more to it than that. The body shapes/form/fluidity, etc. She could do level 4 this year and probably scrape by and score the minimum 34s at most meets but she will do much better working on basics this year in level 3 and continuing her uptraining 4 skills so that next year when she does compete 4, it actually looks nice and she has strong basics to build on for higher levels.
With enough training any kid can probably do level 3 skills, but the level 4 skills are really a step up in the mental aspect. Throwing yourself over a vault table and landing a cartwheel on a balance beam isn’t for everyone lol

 

[3rd_time_around]

I read that as Back Hip Circle. I replaced the S.

LOL!!

 

[ProvB]

And here is the model that Canada built specific for gymnastics...

Link Removed

Interesting... I have never seen this before.

We are in BC and although I love the concept, I think it’s still more of an ideal than a reality. For sure there are some clubs who adopt this approach, but there are just as many who have 7-9 year olds training 18-22 hours a week.

As long as the aspire program is in place in a Canada, there is going to be a focus on getting girls to level 7-9 skills by age 9. Aspire is know as “the path” to elite in Canada, and most 9 year olds in Aspire 1 are training upwards of 20 hours a week.

So we have a bit of a divide amongst coaches/philosophies. The reality is, those gyms that train girls for aspire/high performance are doing high hours and aiming for competing at Gymnix by age 11. Those gyms that take the Long term athlete development approach are lower hours and have 10-12 year olds in JO3. 99% of clubs in BC compete full seasons starting at JO1.

 

[JBS]

We are in BC and although I love the concept, I think it’s still more of an ideal than a reality. For sure there are some clubs who adopt this approach, but there are just as many who have 7-9 year olds training 18-22 hours a week.

Yes... for sure... I have a 9 year old training 23 hours per week... but that doesn't mean that a coach can't keep the concepts of the long term athlete development close at hand.

 

[JBS]

I went completely off topic on this thread... please just answer the original question. I have split all the the long term athlete development stuff off into a new thread...

https://www.chalkbucket.com/forums/threads/long-term-athlete-development-in-gymnastics.63029/

 

[TheXcelSilverGymnast]

Coming from a gymnast........*no means a coach in any way*

Level 4 is a lot harder than level 3. I was a level 3 till i turned age 9-10, and then they said i was "too old" and moved me to xcel. I am in silver now. to the point, we used to practice with the level 4's. From what i've seen, Level 4 is Deffenitly (i spelled that wrong ) harder than level 3. at the same time, level 4 is a buildup to 5. so, ill be comparing 3, 4, and 5 right below....
On vault: Level 3 is jumping to a handstand to your back on a SOFT cushy mat. Level 4/5 is using an actual vault table, and instead of a handstand, doing a front handspring, and then on top of all of it, they have to land on their feet! on another note, level 4/5 have the same vault, but please do not misunderstand me and think that this is nessesarley good. level 5 is scored a LOT HARDER than level 4. a 9.6 vault score in level 3 could be a 9 in 4 and a 8.5 in 5. Scoring gets harder.
on bars: Well, in 3, its PULLOVER, double bhc, fhc, sqaut on. in 4, for starters, they have to do a kip. ok, so your kid can do that. what about with straight arms? on the high bar? Can they jump to the high bar?? ok, maybe im being over dermatic, but going from a pullover to a kip is tough. plus, they have to jump to the high bar, do a kip, bhc, then doing the random dismount? in level 5, its a whole new deal. cast handstands??? 3 kips????? a flyaway?? a lot of girls quit because they cant do a flyaway. here is there routine:
kip, cast hs, clear hip, kip, sqaut on, kip, cast hs, baby giant, tap swings, flyaway.
Beam:
ok, this is a whole other thing. handstands are very hard on beam. it takes core strength and confidence to get to vertical and hold it for 1-3 seconds. (i can do a 11 second hs on floor, but i cant get to vertical on beam )in level 3, you only have to hold it for 1 second, but in level 5, it has to be like 3! Also, in level 4, you have to do a cartwheel. that is pretty. hard. in level 5, you have to do a backwalkover. at the minamim. on the bright side, they all have the same dismount.
Floor: ok, ill make this quick, but in lvl 4, you have to do fhs, and 2bhs. in lvl 3, its just a bhs. in lvl 5, its 2fhs, plus rbhTuck.

SEE my point?/

 

[Dahlialover]

Level 4 is harder than level 3 but the reason that people are not moving up is that level 5&6 are way harder than level 4. That’s where the barrier is. You can do well in level 4 and not have the skills to move to level 5 or 6. Level 5/6 is where skills start getting scary and hard. Physically talented gymnasts who don’t like to work hard hit a wall here and gymnasts who lack physical talent also his a wall here. At the same time hours increase significantly and it becomes s bigger sacrifice. Also, some gymnasts will hit their growth spurts, which makes everything frustrating and hard. Two years in level 4 before moving on or quitting is normal.