Level 5 bars deduction question

[NGL780309]

What is the deduction for not connecting the high bar Kip to the cast? For some reason I was under the impression that it was a pretty big deduction. I don't know why I had it in my mind that stopping counted as a fall.

 

[Quadqueen]

correct me if I'm wrong, but DD's L5 coach told her it was .3 deduction for each missed connection in the L5 routine, so up to .9 if they miss all three connections, give or take...

 

[flippin out]

correct me if I'm wrong, but DD's L5 coach told her it was .3 deduction for each missed connection in the L5 routine, so up to .9 if they miss all three connections, give or take...

I was also thinking .3 for stopping between kip and casting....but that may/or may not include the extra swing that the gymnast needs to take to be able to cast from a support position, not sure about that, so it could actually end up being more than .3? Any judge's out there???

 

[Quadqueen]

not sure...I think DD's coach calls it an "extra swing deduction" rather than a missed connection deduction, so maybe they don't deduct for both the stop and the "extra swing/cast"...since if you stop, you would have to do an extra swing/cast..?

 

[NGL780309]

Thanks. I thought it was .5, but someone was telling me .3. DD is about to compete her first level 5 meet and she has 2 coaches on bars. One coach has told her to connect it no matter what, even if her cast is small (which it usually is). The other coach, who is the head coach, seems to think she will get a better score if she doesn't connect because then she can cast well above horizontal and do the rest of the high bar routine with less deductions.

Either way, it's her first meet and I'm just hoping she will survive!

 

[Quadqueen]

My DD has had three L5 meets so far. She has scored better when she connects the long hang kip to cast, even though when she does that, it's an itty bitty cast Don't know if that helps, but that's been her experience!

 

[gymdog]

It's hard to tell without seeing the individual kid's kip+cast, because some kids will do a better (stronger) kip while trying to connect even if cast is low...if they stop they might pump their legs and do an extra swing...so it's hard to say. Stop deduction definitely .3, I don't have the page in front of me right now but I thought cast was up to .3, so I guess in that sense if they do a dead stop they're probably going to get the full .3, and if they connect kip + cast (assuming it's a good connection) and at least get to clear support it would be somewhere less than .3. But, if it makes the BHC and underswing bad, then you have to take that into account.

But in terms of coaching, this is a place where I value the connection over the score, hoping the kids will get stronger the more they practice and being able to develop cast horizontal and above. I never want to see a dead stop in a bar routine, especially when we're in the process of developing kip cast. But, if they were really able to do the BHC, underswing, swing back better without then I could consider it...I don't usually see a noticeable difference unless the kid is really struggling to kip cast, although that's common (in which case they usually are still working on the jump + long hang kip - esp if they're small - and I'm just happy for them to get up over the bar with straight arms and continue the routine). Even though long hang kip can theoretically be easier when done correctly, a lot of kids can do kip cast on the low bar, but adding in the jump can cause more difficulty plus controlling the bigger swing.

 

[NGL780309]

Thanks for your reply gymdog. I agree with you that I'd rather see her connect and continue to work towards that since that is the ultimate goal. At this point I don't think scores really matter. The compulsory season is over here and these are just fun meets. Since DD just turned 7 it gives her a chance to test out her routines with the season a very long time away. The head coach was telling me that when she does connect she'll get more deductions for her cast being too low, archy rather than hollow and then she tends to do a cruddy back hip circle when she doesn't do a good cast. That was why I left thinking well what is the deduction for not connecting?

DD seems to have an easier time connecting the kip cast on the high bar than the low bar, but she works it mostly on the low bar. Because she's really small the coaches don't move the bars during practice so she practices everything on the low bar or pit bar. Right at the end of the rotation she has started to get the chance to do one full routine with the bars set so she can jump. I understand the not wanting to move the bars back and forth with her being the only one using a different setting. In some ways it has worked to her advantage because she gets spotted a lot for shapes on high bar work while her teammates don't as much.

 

[2gymmies]

I'd say connect and the cast will improve - does she straight arm kip? Some kids bend their arms on the kip when they try to connect and also lose points for that. I pulled out the compulsory text and the angle deductions are .05 to .15 for a cast from 1 to 45 degrees below horizontal and .2 to .3 for a cast more than 45 degrees below horizontal. Also, up to .2 for incorrect body alignment (straight line from shoulders to feet with chest hollow).Best of luck!

 

[gymdog]

The head coach was telling me that when she does connect she'll get more deductions for her cast being too low, archy rather than hollow and then she tends to do a cruddy back hip circle when she doesn't do a good cast. That was why I left thinking well what is the deduction for not connecting?

In this case, then yeah, it's probably better not to connect. I'd probably be along the same lines then...working the kip cast of course separately (kip cast, drop kip, cast series etc) and then working the full high bar part from a cast...the underswing extension into counterswing is also important and I would necessarily want to sacrifice that. She'll get it I'm sure if she has both kips consistently now...that's the first battle. Then they usually spend a few months going back and forth with the connection and working on getting their feet in front enough to cast. In level 5 and 6 I was seriously horrible at bars...no connections. Not sure why because I was physically strong enough but the connections just didn't click. I still somehow had kip cast handstand and giants in level 7 (GREAT coach - seriously don't know how she did it, but she did) and started getting 9s. By level 8 I was in the 9.6s on bars. So I'm probably a little more relaxed than some coaches anyway...I want to see the kids start swinging. I'd rather see slightly bent arm kip cast attempts than straight arm pushaway not made kips. I think they get stronger the more they do on bars...so wherever she is doing it, pit bar, etc being spotted for shapes is great and doing it over and over is great. I may have had horrible level 5 and 6 bar routines but I will say we had to do the skills over and over...5 sets of 5 kip casts, lots of swings, etc. Mine might have been rough but I could still do 5 kips without hitting my feet or getting off the bar. Eventually some of the timing on bars clicked for me and when it did I was super strong and physically prepared to move fast. So I think as long as she's doing the skills over and over even if she isn't quite making the timing yet, once it clicks, hopefully the physical prep is there and it'll be a big breakthrough.