Parents level 5 bars vs. level 4 bars: how hard or long to learn?

[LJL07]

Yes, my dd does long hang pullovers but was calling them "baby Giants." I don't think they are quite the same. In the long hang pullover, their hips are on the bars when they go around, but hips do not touch the bars on a true baby giant. Is that right? Someone correct if I'm wrong.

 

[myeyeson_u]

@AandAsmom you're correct. Here's a vid of dd doing a long hang pullover. Her hips touch the bar.



I don't have a vid of dd doing a baby giant. But I found one on youtube. The second part is a baby giant (I believe). Her hips do not touch the bar. The first one is a long hang pullover. And you can see her hips touching the bar.



But now I wanna know what's the difference in the baby giant and the giant. Is it the giant just has the continuous circling around the bar before the dismount?

Here's dd's giant on a strap bar

 

[GymnastMomX2]

My DD went into her level 4 season this past Jan scoring 9.5-9.7s all season, she had no problem scoring out of level 5 in June and is now getting ready to compete level 6 this January. Now that I think about her bars skills now vs. a year ago its a pretty huge difference! She just got her giants on the pit bar by herself a couple weeks ago, compared to last year she didn't even have a flyaway or freehip yet.

For someone who isn't strong at L4 bars, I think L5 bars would be a big jump, bars just happened to be my DDs best event and she had a kip for over a year before even competing L4 (she repeated old L4 because of floor/vault)

 

[IreneKa]

@AandAsmom

I don't have a vid of dd doing a baby giant. But I found one on youtube. The second part is a baby giant (I believe). Her hips do not touch the bar. The first one is a long hang pullover. And you can see her hips touching the bar.

As I understand it, the first part is baby giant, and the second part is giant.
But I tried to find some videos of long hang pullover, and they look exactly the same as baby giant to me.

 

[GymnastMomX2]

I've heard the long hang pullover/baby giant terms used interchangeably.. but what do I know. lol

 

[IreneKa]

Yes, my dd does long hang pullovers but was calling them "baby Giants." I don't think they are quite the same. In the long hang pullover, their hips are on the bars when they go around, but hips do not touch the bars on a true baby giant. Is that right? Someone correct if I'm wrong.

I think AandAsmom is right. This is the illustration of baby giant from usagym.org:

The hips don't touch the bar until she is all the way over it. If it were a pullover, her hips would probably touch the bar at step 2, and then she would continue around the bar with hips touching it? Just guessing.

 

[Ali'sMom]

I think the second video is the beginning workings of the first video.
I recall seeing some girls in L5 pausing for a moment on the bar before continuing around, and then some girls do it fluidly like the first video.
So maybe it's just where you're from, what you call it?

 

[SurpriseGymMom]

Gymmie is home from school today and says they are the same thing. She's 10, and obviously not a coach, but she seems pretty sure.

 

[RAMS]

For level 5 it does not need to be a layout.

I know, it is just what our gym teaches, no tuck, right to lay out.

 

[kimute]

To the OPs original question, our coach says that the Level 5 skills come easily if the Level 4 skills are solid. For example, if the tap swing isn't high/good enough, a flyaway would be dangerous to try. If the tap swing is awesome, the flyaway should come quickly. I'm not an expert. Just the mom of a DD who just finished a season with a 4/5 group. That sounded like good logic to me.

 

[GymRatMama]

New bars skills are the skills that usually take my dd the longest to acquire in comparison to other events. By the end of L4 her scores were decent (around 9.0), but not great. When she started L5 bars skills she got the fly away and baby giant almost immediately. She struggled with the free hip and the kip squat-on connection in the first half of the routine. It took the entire summer to get the first half of the routine. She really didn't have it consistently and pretty until about October. With that said, at the first meet I was shocked to see some of the girls from the other gyms. Our coaches wouldn't let the girls compete if they didn't have all of the required elements. There were girls competing who were doing Back hip circles, girls who weren't even attempting fly aways, and many girls who were being spotted on their fly away. The bars scores were really low compared to any meet I ever saw at L4, so apparently there is a big difference between the routines at L4 and L5.

 

[munchkin3]

From what I know, Baby giant and long hang pullover are essentially the same thing. One the hips flops down on the bar and there is a pause, the other is continuous and the hips lightly contact the bar but there is no stopping.
The hardest part of the L5 routine is the free hip to horizontal or above.
If you have very good kip casts to above horizontal with straight arms, L5 will be easier but from my understanding, L5 is always scored very hard. I wouldn't worry because it is the last step before optional which is a whole different world.

It seems that the girls who have L4 mastered, and have straight arm, strong kips casts (to horiz) , good tap swings (above horizontal) then the jump to L5 is fine.
The girls who try L5 from a middle of the road L4 routine are just simply not ready yet and you can tell.

 

[curlymop]

Being the mom of boy gymnasts, I would have assumed that a long hang pullover was just a pullover from a dead hang on the high bar, and I wondered what all the fuss was about.

So after watching the video above, I was curious about the difference between the long hang pullover and the baby giant. It seems like even though they look similar, they are not the same thing. In a long-ago post, dunno said the difference is whether the center of gravity stays below the bar or rises above. Or something like that. http://www.chalkbucket.com/forums/threads/whats-the-difference.33122/

All I know is that our L6 boys have a lot of work to do on their baby giants.

 

[IreneKa]

Being the mom of boy gymnasts, I would have assumed that a long hang pullover was just a pullover from a dead hang on the high bar, and I wondered what all the fuss was about.

So after watching the video above, I was curious about the difference between the long hang pullover and the baby giant. It seems like even though they look similar, they are not the same thing. In a long-ago post, dunno said the difference is whether the center of gravity stays below the bar or rises above. Or something like that. http://www.chalkbucket.com/forums/threads/whats-the-difference.33122/

All I know is that our L6 boys have a lot of work to do on their baby giants.

Thanks for the link! That explains it

let me clarify: a long hang pull over is just a pullover. makes no difference what cast or swing it comes from. essentially, the hips come to the bar and 'touch' down on the top of the bar while the shoulders are still 'under' the bar and the hands/grip are still on the top side of the bar where they first were when the long hang swing began.

in a baby giant, and a certain cast must take place to generate enough swing to perform the skill, the body (center of gravity) rises far above the bar. when the body rises above the bar the gymnast shifts their grips around the bar to support phase ahead of the descent of the body. the gymnast 'catches' the swing at the top before it can descend. they then are able to lower their hips to the bar/support position and gently lower their hips to support. this phase is called a 'power down'.

 

[LizzieLac]

From my experience last year, if a gymnast did a long hang pullover rather than a real baby giant, they would score around 8.

Here were the list of differentiators I saw last year:

-Above mentioned baby giant. You needed come around with straight arms and not slam hips down on the bar. You are not supposed to stop motion. This often happens because the gymnast does not know how/when to shift wrists as they are coming around, but rather they stop on top of the bar, shift wrists, complete skill. This is not going to score well, and it will plague the gymnast learning a real giant.

-Clear hip must be at horizontal and the arms straight as you are coming over the top of the bar

-Both casts must be above horizontal.

-Kips must be with straight arms.

-Tap swing must be big - lowest part of the body (feet) must clear the low bar and the feet are intended to come to at least the level of the high bar in the forward swing.

-Flyway release the right time, smooth tuck, stick landing.

-Body positions - legs together, straight, hollow body, etc.

The whole routine is supposed to be fluid with no stopping or pauses.

My DD was a good level bar worker (not great) and she won several meets including states (9.175). I saw a WIDE range of performance on bars and I too was surprised what some gyms would allow their kids to compete with. The last thing I will say is that a strong level 4 bar routine does not necessarily equate to a strong level 5 routine. Helps for sure, but the skills are different (harder) and as has been discussed there are fear/mental issues, not too mention the understanding of bars that needs to come once a kid reaches this level. We have had several physically talented gymnasts struggle at this level because the did not understand what they needed to do to have a good clear hip, for example.

 

[gracyomalley]

Truely strong L4 bars lead to strong L5 bars - but at least around our neck of the woods, there were/are very few kids with really strong L5 bars - most gyms are still working through that level as quickly as possible. That being said, DDs new gym is much stricter and the L5s will be stonger! (also, like many gyms i hear of on CB, they are uptraining giants, etc - something unheard of in most gyms in our state...).

I will say that low 9s at L4/5 in our are do not translate to strong L7 bars due the the need for much more strength at L7....the rare truely complete package kiddo with the higher 9s probably has a good cast handstand and great swing/taps - but we just don't see many of those about here - bars are hard and low 9s win at L7 here....however, those kiddos often have a hard time moving on from there...good bars training with lots of fundamentals, uptraining and focus on proper technique really is worth it even if it leads to more time in the dreaded compulsories!

 

[munchkin3]

Truely strong L4 bars lead to strong L5 bars - but at least around our neck of the woods, there were/are very few kids with really strong L5 bars - most gyms are still working through that level as quickly as possible. That being said, DDs new gym is much stricter and the L5s will be stonger! (also, like many gyms i hear of on CB, they are uptraining giants, etc - something unheard of in most gyms in our state...).

I will say that low 9s at L4/5 in our are do not translate to strong L7 bars due the the need for much more strength at L7....the rare truely complete package kiddo with the higher 9s probably has a good cast handstand and great swing/taps - but we just don't see many of those about here - bars are hard and low 9s win at L7 here....however, those kiddos often have a hard time moving on from there...good bars training with lots of fundamentals, uptraining and focus on proper technique really is worth it even if it leads to more time in the dreaded compulsories!

You have just made a BIG case for compulsories!!! At our gym we have two coaches, one American and one Russian.....the Russian believes that you will not be a good optional unless you are a great L4. The American believes in moving through the lower levels fast and get to the optionals skills as fast as possible.......I am so glad we have the best of both worlds, they bothe are creating a great team!!!
Great L4 bars dont always mean great L5 bars, but it does mean the core and upper body arm strength is there. I can't tell you how many times I have seen floppy bodies in both L4 and L5 and you just know these girls are not ready...
We went to a meet a few weeks ago and the L4 girls (some of the 7yo who were first year L4) were swinging WELL above horizontal, actually to about 45 above the bar, nice tight form, kips all rock solid and with straight arms, casting above horizontal.....i could see these girls easily picking up the L5 bar routine......stick a fork in them, they are ready.

 

[aerials]

You have just made a BIG case for compulsories!!!

And this is the reason why our gym puts a lot of emphasis on level 5 instead of 6. They believe that level 5 is more important and the scrutinty you will get from doing compulsoies will lead to better level 7 routines. So far this has been true our level 5s from last year rocked their level 7 routines this year. Pretty much all above 9s in bars.

 

[3LittleGymmies]

What my daughter struggles the most with in the 5 routine is the free hip INTO kip. It looks like she just doesn't have the endurance quite yet. The other skills came pretty easily to her.

 

[vagymmomma]

Scoring at new L5 should be better than the old L6 because the cast requirements just aren't as strict.

There's a HUGE difference between doing a clear hip and doing one well.