WAG level 5 vs level 6

[flippingtogether]

I can see advantages to both. Our gym competes 5, then goes to 7 while the rival gym (and many others in the area) score out of 5 and competes 6 instead. Julst like the above commenter's gym, our gym believes 5 is a fundamental, important level that prepares the gymnasts better for higher level optionals. I appreciate that our gym has carefully considered it and went for what they believe is best for our gymnasts future success.
I can also see where offering L6 to girls who aren't quite ready for L7 would be really beneficial to keep the kids feeling like they are progressing (even if they actually are NOT, considering you can do lesser skills for L6 than for L5...). It would be a better fit for some kids who struggle with one or two events but are ahead in others (my own child!).

Our old gym kept the girls in 5 until ready for 7, for the reasons stated above - if you master 5, and score well in 5, you will likely be really ready for 7 and ready to be solid. (Assuming you can get that darn giant and a nice layout!)

Our new gym tries to get the girls 5 to 7, but they do 6 if lacking the skills. It is a nice level in between if needed.

I personally love L5 as it IS tough and all those details will really matter for the girls to do well in optionals. You have to be tight, precise, and have very correct form to do well at L5 - what great training. My dd was able to upgrade through the year as needed.....added switch leap on floor, BHS on beam.....never were able to do the layout dismount on bars though! I feel like she will be ready for L7 in the coming 6 months - and importantly, SHE feels like she will be ready.

I do like the idea of L6 for girls not ready for L7 after a year of L5.....two years of L5 would be no fun!

 

[ascarter1]

My dd (and 3 other darlings) went from level 3 to level 6 last season. It was a really hard transition but we all had a very successful season with most girls scoring in the top 5 at state.

There will be a test out meet. It was a no biggie.

At our gym, Giants are required for 7 and it would have been highly unlikely that our girls would have been able to go from level 3 to Giants. That being said, we are less than 1 month since state and half of our girls are really close to having their Giants independently.

Good luck with skipping! It's not for everyone but it is a good fit for some girls! I'm so glad that our gym suggested it for us.

 

[SurpriseGymMom]

Our old gym kept the girls in 5 until ready for 7, for the reasons stated above - if you master 5, and score well in 5, you will likely be really ready for 7 and ready to be solid. (Assuming you can get that darn giant and a nice layout!)

Our new gym tries to get the girls 5 to 7, but they do 6 if lacking the skills. It is a nice level in between if needed.

I personally love L5 as it IS tough and all those details will really matter for the girls to do well in optionals. You have to be tight, precise, and have very correct form to do well at L5 - what great training. My dd was able to upgrade through the year as needed.....added switch leap on floor, BHS on beam.....never were able to do the layout dismount on bars though! I feel like she will be ready for L7 in the coming 6 months - and importantly, SHE feels like she will be ready.

I do like the idea of L6 for girls not ready for L7 after a year of L5.....two years of L5 would be no fun!

Thing is, DD does do most of the "upgrades" of L5 already: she competes BHS on beam and LO dismount. (Her switch leaps are not good, lol!). Her form is still lacking and she is nowhere near getting her giants, never mind competition ready. So for her, going L6 would make sense, or even transitioning to Xcel Platinum perhaps (no aspirations of college gym here, just in it for fun, exercise and all the other benefits of gymnastics!)

 

[raenndrops]

What is the advantage (if there is one) of doing level 5 vs scoring out of 5 and going to level 6? The majority of gyms near us seem to skip from level 4 to 6, but there is one gym competing level 5 and then skipping up to 7. Are the skills for levels 5&6 the same? Just curious.

We had one girl that scored out of Old L6 to compete New L6 (same premise as scoring out of L5). She did this because she is "choreography challenged."
One advantage of going to L6 is that it is OPTIONALS. Routines can be designed to fit the girl. In L5, perfection has been established. The judges know exactly when and what the gymnast is supposed to do. In L6, even if the same judges judged floor every meet, all season, they could not deduct if, for example, the gymnast switched her two tumbling passes or substituted a different pass (as long as it met the requirements) due to something like no spring floor or a minor injury.
In L5, they start at a 10 and can only go down from there. In L6, the judges look at what they DO, keep track of the deductions on the skills, and then compare it to the requirements to establish the Start Value and do their subtraction from there. If you omit a required major skill in L5, there is a BIG deduction. If you omit it in L6, you just lose the SV for the skill. As long as you have the 5 As and 1 B, then omitting a SR only costs 0.5 (the same as a fall on a skill), but without the double whammy of a fall AND loss of SV credit.
I will use an Xcel Example: YG competed Xcel Gold. On beam, she competed Mount, split leap, straight jump, straight jump, pivot turn, pivot turn, Roundoff dismount. She did NOT compete the required full turn OR 2 acro with one attaining or passing through vertical. She was missing 2 Special Requirements, meaning her start value was a 9.0 (highest possible score). She scored as high as an 8.2 with that routine. IF she had competed the full turn (either major wobbles AND a fall or put her heel down way to soon so no credit and probably STILL a fall), she might have lucked into a 9.5 SV, but would have lost points on execution and most likely a fall (0.5). If she had competed the 2 acro, she WOULD have fallen on the cartwheel (not even close), so right there goes that SR and 0.5 even before she attempted the Handstand (with a 50% chance of falling and a 95% chance of not hitting vertical... not that it would matter after the fall on cartwheel)... so that attempt would NOT raise her SV, but COULD cost her up to another -1.0. Best case scenario, her 8.2 out of 9.0 would have been a 7.7 out of 9.5. Worst case, it would have been 6.7 out of 9.0.

 

[LizzieLac]

At our gym the goal is 5 then 7. The first year of the new levels everyone did 6 but now we are adjusting. Girls will do 6 if they are missing Giants, BHS on beam, form issues etc. Some started at 6 then moved to 7 after a couple of meets. That being said we train everyone who finished 5 with the expectation that they train these skills and really placement is not cookie cutter. In other words, just because you do or don't have something does not mean you are just slotted in. Coaches look at potential, work ethic, fears etc. to try to put the girls where they will have success.

 

[Becauseisaid]

If only the L5 music didn't sound like a B movie funhouse horror soundtrack, more gyms around here may have gone that route.

We call it the Creepy Clown music.

Our gym goes from L5 to L7 though that's not the norm in our area. Most gyms around here go L4 to L6. Personally I'm a fan of L5 and think it's a mistake to skip it. But no one is asking me.

 

[wgymmom]

Another fan of L6. I know L6 "can" be less difficult than L5, but around here, I don't see that. The girls in L6 are often casting into the flyaway, hitting handstand or close on bars and doing more difficult tumbling on floor. It is a great level for girls struggling with a fear on 1 or 2 events. I love going to meets where the floor music is different.
Gyms around here used to have girls move from old L5 to L7. Now many gyms are moving from L4-L6 and the L7s in the state as a whole looked really strong this year at States. I still think L6 and L5 are being tried out by gyms to see which is a better fit. It will probably take a couple more years to get a better picture on how the majority of gyms will use each. If only the L5 music didn't sound like a B movie funhouse horror soundtrack, more gyms around here may have gone that route.

The creepy circus music! We only had one meet where it was all L5 and every event video we have has that awful music in the background!

Most gyms around here seem to go 4-7, scoring out of 5. Ours WAS going to do 1-2 meets at 5 and finish at 6 in the spring. 2 weeks before the first meet, they backed out of that and yanked 6 away from the group. They did a whole season at 5. Now they're training "6/7" and to my mind I'm not going to like it if DD trains for a year and has to do 6.

 

[GYM0M]

Our gym really doesn't have a set philosophy on levels. We have some girls that competed L4 in the fall of 2013, L5 in spring of 2014. Of those girls, a few went to L7 & the rest L6 (just about all of them had Giants). We also have girls that competed L5 fall 2013 & spring of 2014, one competed L7 & the rest L6, most of these did not have Giants. We have two seasons of compulsories so that helps as I too believe that L5 is important. Spring seasons don't have a state meet, but the competition is still there!!

 

[2littlegymmiesmom]

Originally I didn't think I was a fan of 6 but I'm starting to really like the flexibility it offers. My DD (8) did level 3 last year as her first year competing. She had all the skills for 4 but had a lot of anxiety about competing so coaches decided on 3 because it was less stress and the skills were easier for her. They felt this would help her with her anxiety. That being said she is now well beyond level 4 skill wise but her form is lacking. She's so powerful but not tight and precise. She would not do well in level 5 because of that. She has the skills but would get tenthed to death in scoring because she lacks the form. She's not ready for 7, no Giants or layout flyaway. So For her Level 6 is a good option (or excel gold, a lot depends on bars!) and I think she would do better in Level 6 than in 5. It will give her a chance to compete at the difficulty level she is at skill wise and not get crushed in the scoring while still perfecting her form. Not too mention how excited she is that it's optionals and she can have her own floor music and dancing that suits her style. I guess a lot really has to do with the girls but I like that it's at least an option for them.

 

[flippingtogether]

This is yet another great ChalkBucket thread with so many good ideas and thoughts. And getting back to the OP's question, my take on this has evolved a bit after reading through all the posts.

I think for some girls, L5 is the best option, and for others, L6 is. My DD is one - maybe an odd one - who LOVES compulsories. She loves all the details, and as a perfectionist loves getting every part of the floor and beam routines as perfect as she can - the monotony of never mixing the routines up doesn't bother her, the same music at meets doesn't bother her, she loves the challenge that compulsory routines offer.

Other girls just don't love working on those fine details and don't score as well having to make sure every step, pose, foot placement, etc. is just so - these are the girls that seem like L6 would be a better fit. And there are plenty of girls who are very talented and who fit into this category.

So there are pros and cons of each path - but it depends on the girl as to which is right it seems.

And is my DD just an odd ball for loving compulsories? I think she is looking forward to making the transition now that L5 States is done - but she is the only one I know not literally jumping up and down to actually be an optional!!

 

[z2akids]

Perhaps someone could clarify something for me. My DD is not at 5/6 yet, so perhaps this is a stupid question.

I have read a couple of posts that 6 may be better for girls who are lacking form. Is this really the case? I understand that a benefit to 6 over 5 is that it isn't compulsory, so you don't get those text errors that you would get at 5. But, are judges really less concerned about form? I would think that bent arms in your kip or a wobbly bwo on beam would be a problem at least as much at optional as in compulsory levels.

 

[2littlegymmiesmom]

I agree with that about form but for my DD is not so much form in the skills as form in the dancing elements of the routines. Her tumbling and beam skills look fine but the dancing parts of the routine are not graceful and she's not tight and precise in her dance moves. Bars are another story as the form is all over the place there but she's working hard at fixing that. So for her a Level 6 routine where The dancing is more suited to her style and her strengths and weaknesses would be a good option. She can do the same skill set as Level 5, maybe more, but not get crushed in the scoring as badly while she eases into optionals and works on perfecting her form. I know there will definitely still be form deductions but I'm hoping they will not add up as much as they did last season. I definitely see benefits to both choices and don't think there's a right or wrong way. I think a lot of it has to do with what works for each girl. I'm just glad we have the option.

 

[raenndrops]

Perhaps someone could clarify something for me. My DD is not at 5/6 yet, so perhaps this is a stupid question.

I have read a couple of posts that 6 may be better for girls who are lacking form. Is this really the case? I understand that a benefit to 6 over 5 is that it isn't compulsory, so you don't get those text errors that you would get at 5. But, are judges really less concerned about form? I would think that bent arms in your kip or a wobbly bwo on beam would be a problem at least as much at optional as in compulsory levels.

It's the form PLUS text deductions in L5 that cause a lot of girls problems. Whereas in L5, the type of turn is prescribed (passé full turn), in L6, they could choose a coupé full turn or some other, pretty looking full turn. Also, good choreography can often hide some form issues (choreograph a tumbling pass to land in a step out or an immediate jump to cover for rebound issues when landing on 2 feet... changing the order of skills to get the best overall "look," etc.)

 

[gracyomalley]

in my opinion (having had a daughter who went old L5 - 4 months total training and competing old L6 then straight to L7 so really just my observations of other girls and the advantages and disadvantages of the days "before the option of the new L6"), having a kid with poor form on skills skip the year at L5 would only mean they get stuck further up the pipe, unless the whole emphasis on the L6 year is fixing all the form stuff. Learning higher level skills early/or at least drilling them is a great idea - DOING higher level skills badly just because you can is not! Learning your giants with bad form and competing them with bent arms, no cast handstand and big arches is not something that is "automatically" going to fix itself (and there are kids at meets doing that kind of giants...), or L5s doing BHS on beam with bent legs etc because they can....I saw a bunch of L6s at one meet warming up who couldn't always land their punch fronts....and needed spot on RO-BHS-BT...they all appeared very young. My guess is they "scored out" of L5. I'm just not sure I see the point...

What's more, the kids I've seen get stuck at the transition from 7-8 (including DD) have all either hit fear/vestibular issues with the big skills (DD), or can't point their toes/keep their legs straight/dance with control/are missing strength( many of her friends)...I'm sure it happens, but I haven't seen kids with good form/strength who aren't scared or dizzy (to simplify vestibular stuff) simply unable to learn the next level of skills with good coaching....some fast and some slow but I've seen enough "slower movers" make it to L9/10 now even in our tiny state that I know there are few well trained confident, hardworking and strong kids (who make it to the point of being at L5 skills) who can't learn basic L10 if they try hard enough, want it badly enough, and keep going long enough.

The reason this is important (IMHO) is that you can't do anything to prevent vestibular issues, you can only try to support a kid and find supportive coaches if fear paralyses them, but you (as parents in our supportive role) can look for coaching that allows kids to be strong, learn things right before competing them, constantly working on the basics while keeping gymnastics fun so that a kid doesn't find themselves on their 3rd year of L7 (DD friend) with most of the L8 skills but unable to score above a 33....or make a standing BT due to strength and poor form.

I really like it that DD gym does both levels and most of the time uses a L5 year with fast learners to uptrain for L7...with the idea that a few will skip L6 but most kids will do a year at each level until L7/L8 - then probably a couple years will be the norm...room to move faster if able, but not without the fundamentals! I really was thrilled when DD went from old 5 to 7 in 6 months and she did well as a 10 year old L7....BUT that "expectation" of moving fast AND winning can be (probably for most kids is) almost impossible to achieve through puberty/harder skills. If you've always moved up/skipped levels then when you hit a road block you feel like a failure....often right when they doubt themselves most anyway....I know that for the 0.0001% of kids that put on a leo for a mommy and me tumble class that will go on to Elite training its critical not to "waste time" - but it should be the exception, not the rule...

 

[GYM0M]

Perhaps someone could clarify something for me. My DD is not at 5/6 yet, so perhaps this is a stupid question.

I have read a couple of posts that 6 may be better for girls who are lacking form. Is this really the case? I understand that a benefit to 6 over 5 is that it isn't compulsory, so you don't get those text errors that you would get at 5. But, are judges really less concerned about form? I would think that bent arms in your kip or a wobbly bwo on beam would be a problem at least as much at optional as in compulsory levels.

I think form is a necessity at all levels, but the difference in L6 is that coaches can select the elements the gymnast performs. Skills with form issues can be replaced with skills that are more proficient.

 

[z2akids]

Thanks for the thoughts. I don't have a problem with teasting out of 5 in preference for 6. In fact, that is what our gym does and I hope DD is ready to do that in the next 18-24 months. I just always read the phrase "form issues" as more of a systemic issue than just a particular skill that isn't competition ready.

It just didn't seem right to me that level 6 judges wouldn't be concerned with pointy toes, good lines and tightness, etc.

I can understand that level 6 gives the ability to work around some skill problems and to choreograph dance moves that compliments the gymnast. But I wonder if it would be the right move for a gymnast that has problems with multiple skills, etc.

 

[raenndrops]

Thanks for the thoughts. I don't have a problem with teasting out of 5 in preference for 6. In fact, that is what our gym does and I hope DD is ready to do that in the next 18-24 months. I just always read the phrase "form issues" as more of a systemic issue than just a particular skill that isn't competition ready.

It just didn't seem right to me that level 6 judges wouldn't be concerned with pointy toes, good lines and tightness, etc.

I can understand that level 6 gives the ability to work around some skill problems and to choreograph dance moves that compliments the gymnast. But I wonder if it would be the right move for a gymnast that has problems with multiple skills, etc.

The judges will look for the straight legs, pointed toes, etc. And L6 CAN be right for a girl with problems on multiple skills... much better than L5 would be for the same girl (especially if the problem skills are in the L5 routines). The other option would be to go the Xcel route (Gold or Platinum)... where judges STILL focus on form and artistry and dynamics, but there are so many more skill options to choose from.

 

[pt coach]

I appreciate the value of level 5...however I was really dreading having to watch my daughter compete it. She has struggled with certain aspects of the compulsory routines. For old L5, new L4 and new L5 it has been the straddle jump. In my head I have been saying I can't wait until she is a L6, I will choreograph routines without any straddles at all...but then something happened this year and it finally clicked. She finally started getting it! She finished up the year scoring 9s on floor. The level 5 routines were also great for her on bars and beam. She seems to understand form much better now. She didn't end up on the podium that often but she scored 9s on all of the events and is really happy with the season. So, while I still will enjoy selecting skills that fit her best next season, I think L5 really benefited her. For her L5 team, basically, those with giants will go L7, those without will go L6.

 

[z2akids]

The judges will look for the straight legs, pointed toes, etc. And L6 CAN be right for a girl with problems on multiple skills... much better than L5 would be for the same girl (especially if the problem skills are in the L5 routines). The other option would be to go the Xcel route (Gold or Platinum)... where judges STILL focus on form and artistry and dynamics, but there are so many more skill options to choose from.

What I seem to read here is that the girls get 10th'd to death on text errors st 5 and can also customize their routines at 6 to minimize any skill/form issues.

Shouldn't that then translate into higher overall scores in level 6 than in level 5?

Just a quick look at States this year for my state shows that 20% of the level 5s scored over a 37 while only 4% of level 6s did. 41% of 5s at States get at least a 36 while only 25% of 6s did.

 

[raenndrops]

What I seem to read here is that the girls get 10th'd to death on text errors st 5 and can also customize their routines at 6 to minimize any skill/form issues.

Shouldn't that then translate into higher overall scores in level 6 than in level 5?

Just a quick look at States this year for my state shows that 20% of the level 5s scored over a 37 while only 4% of level 6s did. 41% of 5s at States get at least a 36 while only 25% of 6s did.

Around here, L6 scores were much higher than L5 scores. At our District Championship Meet, the 1st place scores in L6 were almost 2 points higher than the 1st place L5 scores.
The problem some girls run into at L6 is that while the SR is for a cast at horizontal, they get big deductions on each cast that is not within 20º of handstand. And you have to consider that some gyms want their girls competing L7 routines at L6 (more opportunities for deductions). There are a lot of reasons that COULD explain the differences. It is up to the coaches to decide their philosophy - is it about the scores or the skills or a combination of both?