WAG Mill circle

[needcoffee]

Can't speak for levels 1 or 2 as my DD never did them, but in Australia level 3 bars = pullover, cast back hip circle, under swing dismount, 3 tap swings. Level 4 = 2 glide swings, pullover, cast back hip circle, squat on, 3 tap swings, long hang pullover, under swing.

 

[Musicmama]

I'm following this discussion with fascination because when I was in 3rd grade, I distinctly remember many of the little girls in my class getting on the playground bars and doing mill circles over and over again. They seemed to enjoy doing them.

Fast-forward to a couple months ago and my dd mostly taught herself how to do them and she seems to enjoy it too.

So, I had no idea it was such a hot topic.

 

[Bess]

Ya know? To sorta play devil's advocate with myself, as I think about it....

I had one kid start making her cast to handstands because of the front hip circle. She was just kind of messing around one day with it, and said, "Hey coach, watch this", and showed me a front hip circle cast to handstand/handspring over to her feet. The front hip circle helped her generate power into her cast.

Little Bit did this last summer and surprised the heck out of her coaches. It was very cool to watch a 6 year old crank that out

 

[MBJ974]

In my opinion, I like the mill circle because it makes for a balanced routine. What you do one way, should be done the other way too. You have the push/pull and grip change (hands circling bar) going backward, and it should also be done going forward. The mill circle fulfills these requirements for forward push/pull and grip change (hands circling bar). Together, these two skills make for a balanced bar routine.

 

[3gymgirls]

My oldest daughter really struggled with them for a while. She started to get them consistently in practice about 9 months ago after working on them for nearly a year. She never made one in competition. Fast forward to a few weeks ago when she had been struggling again and her coaches suggested that she put her hands closer together. Now she is very consistent.

My middle daughter is competing L2 this year and told me she made her first mill circle (we call them stride circles in our gym), but I didn't get to see one until last night. I was pretty impressed. Around here, most level 2s who compete have them very consistently.

 

[wordsmith]

The goal of the compulsory committee on bars in this level is to have a routine with multiple skills that requires no spotting, is safe for a child as young as 6 and novice level gymnasts (so going to the high bar is basically out) and flow/breadth of movement. So yeah, we could have the kids cast and do like five back hip circles in a row, but what is that teaching? And if you do that then some coaches will just be teaching back hip circles anyway.

~~~​

With all due respect, most other countries don't offer remotely the same gymnastics program or options as the US. The goal of USA Gymnastics is to provide a platform where every child can participate in gymnastics at he right level for them. That might be Jen Bricker as a tramp/tumbling champion (she has no legs), a child with special needs participating in a class, or the dozens of kids for whom nailing a mill circle will be one of the high points of their career. The position of USA gymnastics is that if a kid is so advanced that a mill circle is beneath her and her coaches want to accelerate the training, there are options to do so (start in level 4, TOPS training, Xcel, etc). for everyone else? The process and physical training involved in learning a mill circle is the same process as anything else in gymnastics. They get stronger using different muscles that they don't use in the back hip circle. They learn to work through frustration. They build synapses in their brains (teaches timing and body awareness). They stay on the bar longer and get better. Those things are "the point."

Excellent comment!

Also built into the level 2-3 routine is the single leg cut, teaching weight transfer to one arm (some carry-over relationship to pirouettes).

Also just overall muscle conditioning with the stride support position (active leg flexibility and leg tightening for good presentation and shoulder support strength).

This post is yet another non-endorsement of the skill. Still just sayin'.

 

[gymdog]

Excellent comment!

Also built into the level 2-3 routine is the single leg cut, teaching weight transfer to one arm (some carry-over relationship to pirouettes).

Also just overall muscle conditioning with the stride support position (active leg flexibility and leg tightening for good presentation and shoulder support strength).

This post is yet another non-endorsement of the skill. Still just sayin'.

I guess the point is, at these levels, it doesn't really matter so much what they "do", it it matters that it teaches the basic bar movements of wrist shifting, body tension, and weight transfer. The average level 3 isn't going to do kips and clear hips and so on, so it has to be something realistic they can perform independently. And mill circles do that. Basket swing to leg cut does too. A sole circle all the way around does too...but that is pretty difficult and dangerous for that level so I guess that's why we end up with the mill circle for well over 20 years and counting. The advantage of mill circles is they are pretty safe. Really they can start attempting them independently fairly soon after introduction. If they had to jump to the high bar or something, that wouldn't be true. They would spend more time waiting in line for us to spot them.

 

[Sasha]

I guess the point is, at these levels, it doesn't really matter so much what they "do", it it matters that it teaches the basic bar movements of wrist shifting, body tension, and weight transfer. The average level 3 isn't going to do kips and clear hips and so on, so it has to be something realistic they can perform independently. And mill circles do that. Basket swing to leg cut does too. A sole circle all the way around does too...but that is pretty difficult and dangerous for that level so I guess that's why we end up with the mill circle for well over 20 years and counting. The advantage of mill circles is they are pretty safe. Really they can start attempting them independently fairly soon after introduction. If they had to jump to the high bar or something, that wouldn't be true. They would spend more time waiting in line for us to spot them.

All this makes sense in the context of "needing something for L3 (and below) to do in a routine" and in the spirit of making gymnastics accessible to non-phenoms, etc, most unique to the USA - thanks for that context and perspective.

I wonder, as this mill circle still gets a bad rap..(and note, I am of course just a parent offering the parent perspective and always learning)

Putting aside for a moment the need for "something safe" in L3 - as in, suppose your goal was instead simply to "develop gymnasts" outside of compulsory levels, would you then train to (near) perfection...

- Glide swing - Yes? (these are my guesses I'm offering - I'm looking for other opinions on all these!)
- Back hip circle - Yes?
- Front Hip Circle - Maybe not?
- Shoot through - No?
- Leg cut - No?
- Kip (of course yes!)
- Tap swings - Yes
- Mill Circle - No?

Thoughts?

ETA: the "quotes" above are my own emphasis/paraphrase - not directly quoting anyone

 

[Deleted member 18037]

All this makes sense in the context of "needing something for L3 (and below) to do in a routine" and in the spirit of making gymnastics accessible to non-phenoms, etc, most unique to the USA - thanks for that context and perspective.

I wonder, as this mill circle still gets a bad rap..(and note, I am of course just a parent offering the parent perspective and always learning)

Putting aside for a moment the need for "something safe" in L3 - as in, suppose your goal was instead simply to "develop gymnasts" outside of compulsory levels, would you then train to (near) perfection...

- Glide swing - Yes? (these are my guesses I'm offering - I'm looking for other opinions on all these!)
- Back hip circle - Yes?
- Front Hip Circle - Maybe not?
- Shoot through - No?
- Leg cut - No?
- Kip (of course yes!)
- Tap swings - Yes
- Mill Circle - No?

Thoughts?

ETA: the "quotes" above are my own emphasis/paraphrase - not directly quoting anyone

Our gym up trains. So our kids are working on higher level skills while they compete whatever level they are at. The expectation is by competition time they have the skills pretty well for the level they are competing at.

So they are competing what they do well (not what they are working on).

While they are competing L4 Floor ie BHS, FHS. They are landing FT, BT and working higher skills.

So while our girls were competing the mill circles, they were working level 4 and 5 skills. They are now winding down their L4 season they are working L5 and L6 skills and occasionally get serious spotting on some L7.

So the mill circle did not slow down their gymnastics progression as far as skills go.

Don't forget, L2 and L3 are not required at all. You can do all sorts of training and start at L4.
Our gym competes L2 and L3 because they believe there are benefits to getting the kids used to meets in general, so by the time the harder skills start they have 2 seasons of meets under their belts.

If you are developing gymnasts you should be having them up train. In fact I wouldn't have my kid at a gym that didn't up train.

 

[raenndrops]

All this makes sense in the context of "needing something for L3 (and below) to do in a routine" and in the spirit of making gymnastics accessible to non-phenoms, etc, most unique to the USA - thanks for that context and perspective.

I wonder, as this mill circle still gets a bad rap..(and note, I am of course just a parent offering the parent perspective and always learning)

Putting aside for a moment the need for "something safe" in L3 - as in, suppose your goal was instead simply to "develop gymnasts" outside of compulsory levels, would you then train to (near) perfection...

- Glide swing - Yes? (these are my guesses I'm offering - I'm looking for other opinions on all these!)
- Back hip circle - Yes?
- Front Hip Circle - Maybe not?
- Shoot through - No?
- Leg cut - No?
- Kip (of course yes!)
- Tap swings - Yes
- Mill Circle - No?

Thoughts?

ETA: the "quotes" above are my own emphasis/paraphrase - not directly quoting anyone

Here are my opinions:
- Glide swing - Yes - a good glide swing is essential for so many skills
- Back hip circle - Yes - I have seen "accidental" clear hip circles from back hip circles.
- Front Hip Circle - Yes - It teaches going forward over the bar like the mill circle does and they have to get their hands back on top of the bar for it too.
- Shoot through - Yes, as a precursor to a squat on
- Leg cut - Yes, for the brief support on one hand
- Kip (of course yes!)
- Tap swings - Yes
- Mill Circle - No - There are other ways to teach the basics learned with the mill circle.

 

[Sasha]

Our gym up trains. So our kids are working on higher level skills while they compete whatever level they are at. The expectation is by competition time they have the skills pretty well for the level they are competing at.

So they are competing what they do well (not what they are working on).

While they are competing L4 Floor ie BHS, FHS. They are landing FT, BT and working higher skills.

So while our girls were competing the mill circles, they were working level 4 and 5 skills. They are now winding down their L4 season they are working L5 and L6 skills and occasionally get serious spotting on some L7.

So the mill circle did not slow down their gymnastics progression as far as skills go.

Don't forget, L2 and L3 are not required at all. You can do all sorts of training and start at L4.
Our gym competes L2 and L3 because they believe there are benefits to getting the kids used to meets in general, so by the time the harder skills start they have 2 seasons of meets under their belts.

If you are developing gymnasts you should be having them up train. In fact I wouldn't have my kid at a gym that didn't up train.

I think this is a huge difference, and potentially predicting factor in whether parents are adverse to mill circle (or any other skill perhaps).

At our gym, typically you have Mid-May-December of 90% routine drilling on existing skills (comp season is Aug-Sept). Jan-May is new skills learning. Even a compulsory who starts her season with a high 36 into 37 (nearly the highest scores you see around here) will still do very very minimal uptraining/skill progressions/drills until January. It's really all routine drilling with a small sprinkling of anything else for 7 months of the year.

ETA: And though I'm only a parent, I have become an educated enough parent to recognize drills that lead to higher skills. I am accounting for that in my statements above.

 

[Deleted member 18037]

^^^^ Again, I get it.

At our gym, typically you have Mid-May-December of 90% routine drilling on existing skills (comp season is Aug-Sept).

And I would not be OK with no up training.

We are under a month away from our states. Kids were drilling upper level skills today along with their level stuff. And ignorant Mom that I am it was some sort of bar release/change, that our L9 does. That was all I could get out of my kid. L9 does it, we started working on it. (now I am sure our L9 has been doing it longer than L9 but currently we have up to L6s and then our L9)

Our meet season for JO starts Sept/Oct runs to early Feb. We probably do limited up training from Sept to Nov, when they really concentrate on their comp routines. Starting around April up training is the emphasis through July. August, levels decided, concentration shifts to level training end of Aug. But the rest of the year its both up training and level work.

 

[gymdog]

Putting aside for a moment the need for "something safe" in L3 - as in, suppose your goal was instead simply to "develop gymnasts" outside of compulsory levels, would you then train to (near) perfection...

- Glide swing - Yes? (these are my guesses I'm offering - I'm looking for other opinions on all these!)
- Back hip circle - Yes?
- Front Hip Circle - Maybe not?
- Shoot through - No?
- Leg cut - No?
- Kip (of course yes!)
- Tap swings - Yes
- Mill Circle - No?

Thoughts?

ETA: the "quotes" above are my own emphasis/paraphrase - not directly quoting anyone

I mean it depends on the kid. I coach all the way from rec to super talented kids. And I also start kids in level 4 all the time. Usually they mastered the mill circle easy in my preteam. Mill circles are always addressed in my curriculum, but are not really a focal point, even in level 3. So I don't want anyone to be confused about that. I enjoy that mill circles are such a non item. They will learn them quickly if they're good at the other stuff and strong enough. And they're safe and fun to attempt. Really all the kids want to learn a mill circle. Is a seat drop on trampoline necessary? Maybe not, but it teaches body awareness and it's fun. The point of a child doing gymnastics is to use gymnastics as a medium to learn and grow. This requires introduction to a variety of skills. If your goal is simply to develop professional gymnasts at a young age and low level, then to me that is inappropriate and besides the point. There is time for that later when they're more capable of choosing for themselves. It's kind of like a balanced diet. For a 6-8 year old intermediate gymnast, I think mill circles are part of a balanced curriculum. Before they can do them we devote one station or occasional spotting time. Once they can do them, we only do them in routines, and primarily drill the following: cast handstand, swing mechanics, kip mechanics, and circling/shifting.

 

[OzZee]

Lol at them being fun. We don't do them here but I remember a couple of years ago someone must have seen them on you tube or something and started a fad - all the level girls were giving it a go and having such fun.
Mostly a bit messy (this was just one bars session) but they all got around and loved it.
Unfortunately no up training or fun at our gym anymore with new coaching style. :-(

 

[CCGymbug]

So here is another question. My DD who is lvl 3 has her kip and is training on a cast handstand. But that darn mill circle, sometimes she does it beautifully and sometimes she almost does a triple around the bar (Mike she forgets she is supposed to stop). Will she be successful or is she doomed?

 

[Deleted member 14190]

On the flip side, my two best front giant kids in the gym both skipped old level 4 (which is new 3) and never attempted a single mill circle.. So....... yea.... Way easier drills to teach front giants..

 

[Geoffrey Taucer]

I think you could loosely separate pieces of the level 3 bar routine (and probably most of the compulsory routines) into three categories:

1) Developmental must-haves. These are the skills that form the foundation on which higher-level gymnastics will be built.
2) Useful drills. These skills may not be absolutely essential (as in you could work around them and still get kids to the higher levels), but they're helpful in some way.
3) Useless/counterproductive fluff. The stuff that has no real reason to be there.

So for level 3 bars, the developmental must-haves are the glide, the back hip circle, and the cast are absolutely crucial for higher-level development. Arguably you could include the pullover, not for the skill itself but for the strength it helps to teach.

Useful drills: the shoot thru, the basket, and arguably the front hip circle. The shoot-thru and FHC help kids get used to leaning the shoulders forward over the bar. In my opinion, the shoot-thru is the better of the two for this, because it requires the kid to push the bar while leaning forward and balancing, just like they need to in a cast handstand, or a cast squat-on; the front hip circle doesn't really mimic any higher level skills particularly closely.

Useless fluff: the mill circle. The only reason for doing this instead of the basket is that it's easier to teach, but I see no developmental use for it. A level 3 is many many years away from doing any other skills in reverse grip, and the skill does not otherwise cover any ground that isn't already covered by the shoot-thru and the front hip circle.

Here would be my ideal Level 3 routine:
- Glide swing
- Pullover OR kip (and judging on the kip should be very lenient on any errors having to do with the wrist shift, but strict about hitting full extension in the glide before initiating the kip)
- Cast, cast shoot-thru.
- Cut back.
- Cast, cast shoot-thru with the other leg.
- Cut back.
- Cast, 2 back hip circles
- Undershoot OR cast off to stick. (my reasoning being that I think that generally kids should compete a full season of 2 back hip circles before competing an undershoot, but I also think that kids who have too much speed coming out of the back hip circles should not be punished for it)

 

[cassafrass]

Hi

 

[CCGymbug]

Oh, and one more question mostly for the coaches out there, when my DD has done her full Mill circle and accidently keeps going, I asked her Why she doesn't stop. She said her coach tells her to look for the upper bar then stop. By time she sees the bar it's too late for her to stop. I did inform the coaches but she still does it and has to be in a VERY focused zone to not do it.

 

[wgagym]

Honestly we only compete Xcel at my gym so I don't bother teaching the mill circle at all. I call it a playground skill and because it isn't required we focus on other skills that I believe are more beneficial basics.