New Gymnastics System

[sportyspice]

I am posting this from New Zealand, we have just introduced a new WAG System and the compulsory requirements do not make much sense to me, so I thought maybe some coaches with FIG experience could shed some light on the direction that this is taking?

First of all, straddle cast to handstands are not credited anywhere at any level. Only cast to handstands with legs together are counted. This means my DD will incur a 1.0 penalty for every bar routine. I had thought straddle casts were acceptable at elite level, so why are they doing this? Is there changes being made to FIG to make them a lower skill?

Also, piked sole circle is a compulsory requirement at Step 7 (average gymnast age 12), isnt this a rather difficult skill to learn so early?

I realise it may be difficult for coaches from another country to give suggestions, but there are no coaches here for me to ask as it is not considered appropriate to ask technical questions.

NB. This new WAG system has been formulated with the purpose of keeping gymnasts in the sport for longer as our girls tend to leave at 12 or 13.

 

[Pineapple_Lump]

I had a look at the new programme (A friend sent it to me to help her interpret). The Pike sole circle was in the level five routine a few years ago and most kids managed to do it.

I can not see where it specifically deducts for straddle casts, but it does not encourage them either. For step 7 The core element is cast with leg together to 45 degrees, but has a 'difficulty bonus' for a cast to 30 degrees and a 'technical bonus' any cast to handstand. I guess they would rather see a cast with feet together than a straddle to handstand. If your daughter is in step seven and she can cast to handstand with legs together, she will get her core requirement, a difficulty bonus and a technical bonus. Maybe the coach is wording things funny to encourage her to work an element that will get a bigger score. We always had our gymnast believe that the minimum cast height was the bonus requirement, I imagine many coaches do this from time to time.

 

[sportyspice]

Thanks Pineapple Lump, I really appreciate your input. I have been thinking about her bar routines (from what she has told me) and shes doing free hip circle to handstand which should satisfy that Step 7 core requirement? She can only do straddle cast from kip, would this get a technical bonus do you think? Does this mean that straddle casts are overall considered an inferior cast internationally?

I don't usually get this fussed over technical elements of her gymnastics but I think it stems from my distrust over what is happening with overall WAG program. There was a big deal made last year about the new Talent ID program and girls given certificates, free leos, etc. (made DD feel like she was something special) and now that is completely scrapped and we have lost approx 10 girls from that program......I don't have a lot of faith in what is happening with the sport in this country.

 

[Pineapple_Lump]

Free hip to handstand would also get a difficulty bonus
For the core requirement it is cast about 45 - so I guess the straddle cast would work, but feet together would be better. It looks like the higher steps do not reward the straddle cast. The move towards feet together is interesting, because for many gymnasts it is very difficult to do this without deduction, kind of goes against the whole keep the kids in the sport aim. Straddle casts are okay by the rules, they just won't get rewarded like they used to.

I actually think (at least in theory) that the new program is better for the majority of gymnast. I don't know anything about the talent ID program, certainly sounds nice, perhaps they don't have the resources to continue?

 

[sportyspice]

Thanks for your input Pineapple Lump, I don't understand why straddle cast to handstand is given full credit in IDP5 and 6 and yet not in our levels program! Looking at bar routine for IDP5, my DD could do this no problem and probably score better.

I am impressed that Australia has promoted gymnastics as one of the top ten sports and awarded substantial funding. Looks like your gymnasts are going from strength to strength.

 

[Aussie_coach]

Hi, well I am from Australia and New Zealand have been using the same scoring system as us for many years and has the same IDP program. I have seen the new steps program being introduced in NZ.

The steps to not align exactly with the old levels. So say the kids were in level 7 last year, that does not mean they go to step 8 this year. Because its the first year of the system, coaches will be able to choose where their gymnasts is going to start in the Step system. So if a gymnasts struggles with a new requirements they can go to a lower step and if they find them too easy they can go to a higher step.

They can do a straddle cast to handstands, there is no deduction for the straddle cast it still counts the same as a cast with legs together. But they can't use a straddle cast to gain the bonus points.

Also yes, we did used to have the piked sole circle as the compulsory bar change for level 5, it was probably the hardest skill in the routine but most kids got it, once it was in their routine and they worked on it.

Some kids may find IDP 5 bars easier but IDP5 bars is not really designed as a competitive bar routine, it is a progressive step towards elite. The STEP program is designed to be an end within itself, so they need full bar routines with bar changes and so on, because all their gymnastics achievements are with in the program, so to have a single bar routine would not work. But IDP is designed to be a development to international routines and the skill progress is more important than the need for a finished complete routine.

Also if in IDP 5 they must do all apparatus not just bars, would your daughter equally cope with other apparatus? There is also an age limit on IDP5 it is really designed for kids who are 9-10 years of age.

 

[sally]

The idp program and levels program are so different. We have found that with my dd who is doing idp atm. When she went for a trial in another club they wanted her in level 6. However she wouldn't of been able to compete because of her skill level so mixed up. We found some skills she was so far advanced but other things like vault so far behind. Due to the fact she had no hope to be able to jump up to the vault table because she is so short. What I am trying to say is that some things in levels are harder but other things are a lot easier. Not sure why that is.

 

[gymnut1]

Does this mean that straddle casts are overall considered an inferior cast internationally?

QUOTE]

Yes
I believe that a straddle cast is an A and a straight cast is a B under FIG (please someone correct me if I am wrong)

The reason you see some world class gymnasts using a straddle cast is because they count only the highest 8 moves in D value. Once they have 8 moves at C and above they are not counting any As or Bs so it makes no difference to them if they straddle cast.

 

[Pineapple_Lump]

Yes
I believe that a straddle cast is an A and a straight cast is a B under FIG (please someone correct me if I am wrong)

The reason you see some world class gymnasts using a straddle cast is because they count only the highest 8 moves in D value. Once they have 8 moves at C and above they are not counting any As or Bs so it makes no difference to them if they straddle cast.

You are correct, although I would say many straddle cast because it is easier to do without deductions.

 

[sportyspice]

The idp program and levels program are so different. We have found that with my dd who is doing idp atm. When she went for a trial in another club they wanted her in level 6. However she wouldn't of been able to compete because of her skill level so mixed up. We found some skills she was so far advanced but other things like vault so far behind. Due to the fact she had no hope to be able to jump up to the vault table because she is so short. What I am trying to say is that some things in levels are harder but other things are a lot easier. Not sure why that is.

I agree, there does not seem to be any comparison between levels and IDP which means transition between them very difficult. For example, DD must do two vaults, a handspring vault and either a tsuk prep or yurchenko prep vault in step 7, yet IDP 6 only requires a handspring vault! It seems IDP6 bars and vault are easier than step 7, which doesn't seem to make sense as that is a point where some gymnasts change to IDP and they would be required to do lesser skills? IDP6 beam seems to have much higher difficulty in comparison to the requirements for the other events.

BTW I am happy for DD to be competing step 7, and IDP is not an option as her coach does not agree with it. I am more confused as to the methodology in formulating this new system. Having faith in DD's sport will make it a lot easier for me to support it.

 

[Aussie_coach]

As IDP is an elite training system, the kids performing these levels are significantly younger and smaller than the average competitive gymnast. Getting over the vault table is a bit of a struggle when you are 4 feet tall. Also many of the skills in the regular competitions are not progressive so they are pointless for IDP.

For example take bars, the squat or stoop on a jump to high bar is used in most competitive streams. Its the easiest way to get to high bar and kids feel like they are doing real gymnastics when they transition to high bar. But in international gymnastics the skill really leads no where so its not bothered with in IDP. Instead the time is focussed on developing the cast to handstands, giants and clear circles to handstand which will be in valuable.

Also IDP gymnasts only compete skills they have been able to do for a long time. IDP gymnasts do not learn a skill and then compete it, they spend many years perfecting skills. So while they may be competing simpler skills they are training much harder skills in the gym, but they only compete what they can do to perfection. Which is as it should be for elite but not necessarily for the regular competitive gymnast.

 

[Pineapple_Lump]

SportySpice, I think the coach just has expectation over and above the basic requirements. When you look at the basic requirements it would be easier than IDP, obviously there is an expectation to have all bonus skill and maximising skills. Do you know why the coach does not bother with IDP any more? I remember their athletes beating the Aussies at National clubs in IDP when ever they went over the ditch.

 

[Kiwi]

NB. This new WAG system has been formulated with the purpose of keeping gymnasts in the sport for longer as our girls tend to leave at 12 or 13.

I didn't know this about trying to stop girls leaving at 12. The explanation I saw (from NZ gymnastics) was that the skills in steps are supposed to progress more smoothly, one step leading to the next. I don't know if this is true, as I'm new to all this and don't know what was in each of the levels, but apparently NZ gymnastics believed the skills in the levels system had some big jumps at some levels that made it hard for girls to progress. I can kind of see what they are trying to do with the skills progressions, for example step 3 has round-off, step 4 has round-off BHS, step 5 has RO BHS BHS. They keep a lot of it the same and just add one new skill, or a more difficult version of the basic skill.

Somebody else told me that the real reason they have gone to Steps is that they were tired of paying Australia to use the Aussie levels system - I have no idea how much truth there is in this.

 

[Pineapple_Lump]

I think one person was pushing for the Australian system and many were not happy about it at the time. I also heard at the time that Australia put the foot down and said no more using part of the program 'all or nothing'. NZ never capped the difficulty allowed at levels 4-6, so it got a little crazy with girls added up to 2.0 to their apparatus score to be competitive at nationals. So we had girls doing level four who basically had level six skills. Kids who did not train high hours were having to repeat to be competitive or never see the podium. Making up that 2.0 were skills like wolf jumps which really did not lead anywhere for higher levels.

I think it has been simplified with the step program, to include elements that develop into code skills for higher levels. They have the 3/4 giant in one of the compulsory routines on bar (like done in the US L6 routine) where as the Australian program has no compulsory swinging elements beyond level four. Most higher level bar routines are made up swinging skills or elements that require swing to begin with. The new system seems far more progressive. The Aussie program tends to want skills from the code as early as possible which leads to the use of many skills which are dead end such as that toe shoot dismount in nearly every level.