Parents No parents allowed

[wandrewsjr]

"the truth is that coaches DO NOT want parents, or especially grandparents observing the early learning stages of ANYTHING level 8 and beyond. why? because it might scare the crap out of someone and could cause an observer to scream out during a practice and freak out the other kids. this is the reality and truth of what your all talking about. isn't anyone concerned about the safety distraction of kids other than their own?"

SOO agree with this. There is nothing worse than when the kids have to hear a gasp or scream from the parents EVERY time a kid splits the beam. It affects their confidence as much or more than the actual fall.

"children have been attending school for over 2 centuries. you pay a lot of money for that also. does this entitle everyone to sit in their child's classroom to observe and evaluate all that you are talking about here? and when your kid gets drivers education...do you jump in the car with the instructor??"

This is what I always think of when parents say they wouldn't take their kids to a gym that doesn't allow viewing. Though some may home school, the vast majority of families drop their kids off at school for 7 to 8 hours a day, starting at 5 years old! And tell me if I am wrong, but most schools, public or private(which you pay for!) don't have a parent viewing area for you to sit at all day.

 

[wallinbl]

this issue always fascinates me. and all this discussion about something called observation never took place years ago. is it sexual abuse? is it abuse in general?? is it the anxiety of gymnastics in general??? you want to be there to micromanage in the event that your child becomes injured???? or upset?????

Mistreatment, sexual or otherwise.

and why is it always asked "what are they trying to hide"? honestly folks, ya think something bad is going on behind closed doors? things have certainly changed in the last 30 years, but my experience has shown me that most people/parents/new parents are more irrational than ever.

It's not about being irrational - it's about simple measures for avoiding circumstances where things can happen. The coaches in a gym where there is open observation are at less risk for accusations of impropriety - that aspect benefits them as well. If I do something in private, you can accuse me of all sorts of things. If I do it in public, you can't accuse me of much that I didn't actually do.

children have been attending school for over 2 centuries. you pay a lot of money for that also. does this entitle everyone to sit in their child's classroom to observe and evaluate all that you are talking about here? and when your kid gets drivers education...do you jump in the car with the instructor??

Two things - abuse often happens in schools and most classrooms around her encourage parent volunteers because the budgets have been cut for assistants.

what i think is important is that you educate your kids to all things evil. even when it's painful to explain some of the things that go on in life and that bad people can be out to get them. you have to let the kids find their own space and the privacy that goes with it. it's called self determination and learning the basic tools of self responsibility.

No doubt, but that is something that increases with age. In the case of many of the parents on here, we're talking about very little kids.

the fact is, most kids in sports do not want their parents around for anything but support. they want their space, their privacy/friends and an endeavor that they can call their own. an endeavor that is not controlled or manipulated or interfered with by a parent. i understand that this is difficult for most parents to wrap their brains around.

Not sure how this is related to being able to watch.

finally, the gym is the last place you have to worry about. and are their bad people that coach in gyms? there are, and have been in the past. but are the statistics relative to evil higher in the gyms than in normal life? the answer is no. so let's keep a perspective on all this discussion about observation. keep it logical as it relates to society as a whole and rational when you are told by the club owner or coach that tonight...or the next few days...there is no observation taking place currently do to some of the issues taking place preparing kids for competitions. this is common as a nostril.

I don't think anyone is singling out gyms here. I can watch soccer practice, piano practice, Sunday school, etc. There aren't that many situations I encounter were someone needs to take my kid somewhere private. That's the part that's being singled out here.

and what about all the posts that you all post up in regard to the observation areas and that they are the devil's den. things that are said about your own kids as well as other parents kids by other parents that are either stupid or have no filter? "be careful what you wish for" is what comes to mind at the moment.

Sure, the viewing area is a bit of a mess in terms of crazy comments, but nothing in life is free!


No one's accusing gym coaches or owners of anything here. Just saying that open is better than closed, public better than private. The only issue driving private seems to be parents that get a little nutty, but they just need to be dealt with. Don't punish everyone else to avoid dealing with the crazy people. They'll be crazy whether they can watch or not - and if they can't watch, they're probably drilling their kid with questions on the way home, so you've just offloaded the crazy from yourself to the kid.

 

[wandrewsjr]

The general concensus seems to be that gyms have this policy just because of "crazy gym parents". But, you know, gyms SOMETIMES do things because it is what is best for the kids. I have little ones who look up at the parent gallery before every turn, to check and see if their parent is watching. These parents aren't acting crazy, they are just sitting there, quietly watching. But it would be so much better if the child were completely focused on the skill they are performing and my correction, not worried about if their parent will be disapointed if they don't perform the skill well.

 

[Empowered]

All great points Dunno but my counter is this...

If I WANT to go and sit in my child's classroom for a day, for a day a week, for an hour a day... I can. I would never send my child to a school that said you cannot come on campus, EVER.

If I WANT to be in the car during my child's driving instructions, I can. Your state might be different, but in my state the parent can ride along if they so choose.

No I would have no idea if what is being coached is being done so correctly, but that doesn't preclude my right observe anyway. You can defend it anyway you like from a coaching stand point, but I see no reason why a gym would have a "you cannot watch ever" philosophy.

It's funny to me that so many coaches complain that parents don't know anything like we're all a bunch of mindless boobs, but then almost relish keeping us in the dark. I am sorry but I am unwilling to take the sit down and shut up role as a parent. I am involved, I will stay involved, and I am proud of that.

 

[MeetDirector]

Folks -

Everyone needs to read and heed what Dunno said on this one. You may not like it, but he speaks the truth.

Allow me to echo that watching a higher level gymnast (level 6 and beyond) train is like watching sausage be made from the slaughter house on. There is nothing that a parent watching can do to influence the process. I am saying this from personal experience and a long learning process. Every single coach in a USAG-member club is safety certified and knows how to spot the huge variety of skills that are taught. Our gym has athletes from elementary school to high school; parents from level 6 and on are told that it is of no value to watch practice. Practices are 3-4 hours long, 4-6 days a week; use that time for another purpose.

Parents need to be the support system after practice; the more they watch practice the more they want to be involved in "helping" fix what they saw. Unless you are your daughter's coach, you are not qualified to do this. And most times, there may not be anything that needs to be "fixed" as it is just part of the building block for skill development. Leave the coaching to the coaches.

USAG has a very thorough background check process to weed out the bad apples; it works and doesn't apply to just coaches - judges and meet directors go through the same process.

 

[Empowered]

Well I think one thing is clear... There are two distinct camps in this forum. The coach's camp and the parent's camp and frankly it appears we are all about as likely to agree as the democrats and republicans at this point.

Thus I think we're all just gonna have to agree to disagree and the original poster can pick her camp and vote accordingly

 

[flippysmom]

what i think is important is that you educate your kids to all things evil. even when it's painful to explain some of the things that go on in life and that bad people can be out to get them. you have to let the kids find their own space and the privacy that goes with it. it's called self determination and learning the basic tools of self responsibility.

I agree with your entire post dunno, but this portion especially. My dd is an 8 year old level 4. I had been watching practice about once every two weeks until about a month and a half ago. Dd was coming home from practice thinking that her coach didn't like her and that she wasn't good, etc. To keep a long story short, I watched practice for two weeks and found that dd needs to toughen up and realize that you can't always be the teacher's pet. Her coach is wonderful with her and knows how to motivate her (she would do anything to have the coach recognize her in front of the group). I have spent countless hours in the last month discussing personal responsibility, being a team mate, etc.

I see the hard work that her coaches put in, and feel that it is my responsibility to give her the social skills that will allow her to follow her gymnastics dreams as far as she chooses to, and be a responsible young adult at the end of the journey.

That being said, I would not be able to help my dd if I did not have the freedom to watch practice. It is like everything in life, you need a healthy balance and the right intentions. It is unfortunately the few crazy gym parents that ruin it for the rest.


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[Deleted member D3987]

if my intent was to paint you all as crazy gym parents i would have said so. this is not the case. go back and read what i said a 2nd time.

i have raised 3 children to adulthood. not once did i ever ask to sit in on one of my child's classroom. what would be the point? if there was ever an issue, those issues would be brought to light by either my child or teacher or principal. and those issues would be mitigated and remedied thru them with my involvement.

case in point as an example: 1 of our sons was in the 6th grade. this example had to do with religious education. the teacher for religious ed was an FBI agent. we gave permission for our son to go on a "field trip" to a food kitchen in the city. we were slightly nervous due to the neighborhood but entrusted our son to the FBI agent.

at 11:00 p.m. we get a call from our son. he was informing us that there was a change in plans. they were leaving the soup kitchen and going on another "field trip" to the FBI office in that city.

now, i'm just like the rest of you i'm sure. i don't like a change in predetermined plans when it involves my kids. nonetheless, we told our son that we weren't exactly happy about this change, and that he would still be going to school the next morning. when we hung up, my wife and i decided that we would say something to the Rabbi that week. that we didn't like the fact that predetermined plans had been changed at 11:00 p.m. on a school night. and what recourse did we have when we were 40 miles away? i suppose i could have called a cab. but i wasn't comfortable about that. my wife even less.

our son returned home at 1:00 a.m. and something was clearly the matter. we asked. he told us that himself and a couple of other students held a gun and pulled the trigger of an unloaded weapon. this was not part of the plan of giving service to the food kitchen AND WE DID NOT GIVE PERMISSION FOR OUR SON TO HOLD AND FIRE AN UNLOADED HANDGUN FOR ANY REASON! need i say more?

in the vein that &%@t happens, it did in an extraordinary way. my point in this is that dumbfounding things happen in the raising of our children. and most of the time bad things don't happen. and no matter how efficient and thorough you might think you are as a parent, things of this nature come along and you realize that most people will not think the way you do.

as it relates to the topic, our gym does not have 'open' observation. never has. but if a parent or visiting relatives want to stop in and observe from time to time they are welcome. observation daily and hourly and by the same parent is not welcome. we have our reasons that are experience based over several years. this is why gyms have certain policies about observation, and none that everyone would agree about all of the time.

i'll leave you with this. a few years ago a mom and dad bring their daughter in for a try out to a gym. it was rather busy that day in this gym. they had another daughter not trying out and they had another child who was 4. this gym had recently emptied one of their pits because it had taken on water and had to be dried out. the pit had caution tape and mats around it to demarcate the area.

the gym was very busy that day. there were many people in the observation area. these new parents were busy watching their daughter try out and all the other things taking place in the gym. the 4 year old migrates away from the parents, as 4 year olds do sometimes, and without any of the other parents in the observation area noticing. there were pre-school classes going on at the same time. the 4 year old migrates to the pre-school class. 2 instructors can't identify who this child is. they call for the gym manager out loud. as the 2 instructors prepare to sit their groups down together so that the other can tend to the 4 year old...and while this is taking place, the 4 year old migrates again and away to the closed off pit and falls in. he died instantly.

at a competition a couple of years ago. a gymnast falls and straddles the beam and takes a pretty hard fall to the mat. she cracked her toenail open in the process and there was visible blood that could be seen from the spectator area. the mother sees the blood. out of her mind, she runs downs the bleachers and out on to the floor. she never looked left or to the right where there was a gymnast vaulting and running right at her. the gymnast hits her at full speed and literally lifts this mom off the ground where she falls and hits her head on the cement floor adjacent to the vault runway. the mom suffered a fractured skull and concussion. was in the hospital for 3 days. her daughter went home that night with a cracked nail and pretty sore inner thighs. but good came out of it...the mom found out she was pregnant while in the hospital.

the point? parents that have not been in the sport longer than a couple of years don't know about all the things that can happen. some that are foreseeable and some not. some that are predictable and some not. club owners and coaches do have knowledge, foreseeability and such. at least the good ones do. it's stories like these that contribute to the safety awareness that coaches and club owners have. we trust what takes place in the gym instructing your children because it is controlled and predictable and with the utmost of safety in mind. it's the stories that i have told you that put club owners and coaches on alert, when we should be focusing 100% of our attention on your children. this is paramount to the safety of all the children involved in our sport.

and respectfully speaking KateR, i am not off the mark. i am on the mark completely and explaining to you why coaches and club owners are the way that they are. and YOU may not be "coaching from the sidelines, yelling, etc;" but you have NO idea how often all of that behavior takes place every day at some gym somewhere in the USA. and the things that come up at competitions that most of you are not aware of at the moment but hear about later from, and usually, your own kids.

 

[Quadqueen]

Great examples of bad things that can happen. Neither really illustrates your point though. One was during a meet...are you suggesting we ban parents from meets too?? And if you don't support a parent watching her own child during a gym try out, you are crazier than I thought, Dunno.

I'm going to agree with Empowered...I guess those who support a closed gym policy and I will have to agree to disagree .

 

[Geoffrey Taucer]

if my intent was to paint you all as crazy gym parents i would have said so.

Trust me, everybody, he isn't kidding here. If dunno thinks you're a complete loon, you'll know.

Having said that

Dunno, I disagree with you on this one.

The best comparison I can draw here is with government -- I want to keep this apolitical so let the record show that I'm not referring to anybody in specific with this example, just using it as an example. ANYWAY. If government was not required to have any transparency, and if the media were not allowed to criticize government officials, there's no denying it would be much easier for government officials to get things done. Assuming perfectly honest and honorable officials, this would be a much more efficient system. So why do we need transparency and freedom of speech? Because we can't assume perfectly honest and honorable officials. With everything they do, they need to know they're being watched. Will it be inconvenient and uncomfortable for them? Absolutely. But it's worth it, because it means they are accountable for everything they do. And while those who unconditionally criticize officials regardless of what they actually do are generally regarded as idiots, the right to criticize when necessary is absolutely fundamental.

Likewise, the right to supervise your kid's training is fundamental. Yes, 99% of coaches probably do have their kids' best interests at heart. But there's know way to tell which coaches fall in that remaining 1%, and therefore the right of parents to watch us like hawks is absolutely fundamental, and we should not deny them that right.

Does that mean they should sit and watch every single practice? No, of course not. Does it mean they're going to understand everything that's going on in practice? Not a chance. But they have a right to observe if and when they so choose.

The comparison to school simply doesn't hold up. First of all, gymnastics is much more dangerous, and parents have the right to know whether we are approaching skills in a safe manner. Second, they're wearing much more extensive clothing at school than at gym. Third, there really is little or no occasion for any physical contact between a teacher and a student at school, whereas in gymnastics the very nature of our job entails lots of close physical contact with the kids.

So, yes, parents absolutely have a right to drop in and watch whenever they please. Is it inconvenient to us? Yes. Does it make our lives more difficult sometimes? Absolutely. But we cannot deny such fundamental rights just because they pose an inconvenience to us.

 

[skschlag]

I think the difference that we are discussing is the "NOT ALLOWED" to observe, versus, the "BEING ALLOWED but not recommended." I sit at the gym a lot, more than I would like, purely because of the cost of gas to get back and forth. However, I do not watch most days unless asked to watch something specific (new skill, etc). I talk, drink coffee, do work, read books. If I was NOT ALLOWED to be there, I would have a problem. However, letting parents know that they CAN watch but here are the reasons we don't recommend it is fine.

I think parents IN the gym is NOT ok. That is dangerous as dunno pointed out, and not necessary. I also dislike the gyms where there is no glass between the parent and the gym. Our team was practicing at a gym like that one night, and honestly, hearing the parents yell at the kids and coaches made me realize why they might disallow parents there!

But, I think having an option to watch, versus saying you are not allowed to, is the difference. Sometimes it is all in the wording of the policy.

 

[Geoffrey Taucer]

Parents on the gym floor is absolutely not ok.

Being allowed to observe but recommended not to is completely fine.

Not being allowed at all just doesn't sit right with me. And this is coming from a coach who does not have any children of his own.

 

[Deleted member D3987]

"The comparison to school simply doesn't hold up. First of all, gymnastics is much more dangerous, and parents have the right to know whether we are approaching skills in a safe manner. Second, let's be honest, their attire during practice leaves little to the imagination, and for somebody who approaches young children with the wrong intentions, I can scarcely imagine a position that would draw them more than that of a gymnastics coach. Even for a coach whose intentions are completely honorable, the very nature of our job entails lots of close physical contact with young children."

i'm not so sure anymore on this anymore Geoff. i stated that if a parent wants to observe in our gym we let them do so. but it comes with restrictions. and certainly, after so many years of doing this, our/any gym develops a reputation and parents are comfortable with their children being in our charge.

with that said, the country has gone off in such bad direction on so many things that I feel more safe when i'm at the gym or at a meet. silly as that sounds, consider my age and all i've experienced up till now. and i'm still not comfortable that all 3 of my children are out in the world on their own. it's a helpless feeling really, but the simple comfort is that my wife and i have done all that we could do to raise good people. and it never involved observing their classrooms, instrument/voice classes, sports practices and such.

this topic will always fascinate me. and i sincerely respect the opinions of others. and freedom of speech is a sacred privilege. but i won't start on our government, or even my failed state government cause it gives me a migraine...

 

[Gymmonkeymomma]

Parents on the gym floor is absolutely not ok.

Being allowed to observe but recommended not to is completely fine.

Not being allowed at all just doesn't sit right with me. And this is coming from a coach who does not have any children of his own.

This parent of 2nd kid now having gone through Level 8-training-scary-skills agrees!

 

[wallinbl]

This parent of 2nd kid now having gone through Level 8-training-scary-skills agrees!

I'm actually fascinated by the clever (to me, at least) ways they teach the crazy skills and how they lead up to them without just totally chucking it. Probably easier for me to watch because it's not my kid (mine's only L5), but it's pretty cool to behold.

 

[Deleted member D3987]

Great examples of bad things that can happen. Neither really illustrates your point though. One was during a meet...are you suggesting we ban parents from meets too?? And if you don't support a parent watching her own child during a gym try out, you are crazier than I thought, Dunno.

I'm going to agree with Empowered...I guess those who support a closed gym policy and I will have to agree to disagree .

you should know that there are parents that have been banned from competitions. not just coaches. and i do support parents observing their children during try outs and even practice, but in the case of the 4 year old and other less than fatal stories i could tell you, the gym should have not had to suffer thru the death of a child cause a parent was not observant of their own.

and i've never considered myself crazy. realist, maybe. but the industry has caused me pause for concern from time to time.

 

[mommyof1]

I agree with your entire post dunno, but this portion especially. My dd is an 8 year old level 4. I had been watching practice about once every two weeks until about a month and a half ago. Dd was coming home from practice thinking that her coach didn't like her and that she wasn't good, etc. To keep a long story short, I watched practice for two weeks and found that dd needs to toughen up and realize that you can't always be the teacher's pet. Her coach is wonderful with her and knows how to motivate her (she would do anything to have the coach recognize her in front of the group). I have spent countless hours in the last month discussing personal responsibility, being a team mate, etc.

Sounds like in this instance parent observation was actually beneficial to both gymnast and coach.

 

[Geoffrey Taucer]

Now, having said all this about parents having the right to watch their kids training, that doesn't mean that I think parents should be watching practices at all times. Generally, the less a parent watches their kid practice, the better for the peace of mind of everybody. Less pressure on the kids, less pressure on the coaches, less stress on the parents. And I have no objection to a healthy layer of soundproof glass between the parents and kids, or even a one-way mirror that allows the parents to see the kids but not vice-versa (in fact, I would absolutely LOVE to install such a setup at my own gym.) And the next kid who gets kicked out of our gym solely for having crazy parents will not by any means be the first.

So while I do think parents have a fundamental right to watch, I also think it's best if -- once the necessary trust is developed -- they exercise that right very sparingly.

 

[Deleted member D3987]

No doubt, but that is something that increases with age. In the case of many of the parents on here, we're talking about very little kids.

the fact is, most kids in sports do not want their parents around for anything but support. they want their space, their privacy/friends and an endeavor that they can call their own. an endeavor that is not controlled or manipulated or interfered with by a parent. i understand that this is difficult for most parents to wrap their brains around.


Not sure how this is related to being able to watch.

the above is from wallinbl. and i appreciate and understand where you might be in the process of raising your young child. my point, after having been at this for so long, is when the kids hit approx 12 years old, they don't want you observing. they want to be left alone to work thru the things that they work thru. some of these tools that they use to work thru gymnastics comes from the coaches AND even their own parents. they want to feel that they are being respected for their hard work and don't want to be constructively criticized by even their own coach let alone the parent. kids have said respectfully, "why don't you get up there and show me how to do it". an experienced gymnast can be very confident and verbose you might imagine. and when they joke with us coaches? well...some actually get up and show them how it's done. in my case, that left me several years ago.

and finally, and because many of you post about how difficult communication becomes about practice, and at about the same age of 12, they don't want to talk about practice whether you observed or not. especially if was a bad day at the office. they learn about this from not only their parents but from their coaches too. leave it at the door...understand? and obviously this is not an issue for pre-teen kids and their parents. so when a coach has told your children "that what happens in the gym stays in the gym" they are usually speaking about leaving it at the gym door. understand? there is no malice or covert secret taking place.

anyway, fascinating subject matter. everyone should know about this site.

 

[DND]

he above is from wallinbl. and i appreciate and understand where you might be raising your young child. my point, after having been at this for so long, is when the kids hit approx 12 years old, they don't want you observing./QUOTE]

Does this mean that you feel it is okay for children up to a certain age??