Pak vs. bail

[ZJsMom]

My dd wants to learn a Pak. I've noticed though in JO and college, bails are more common than Paks. I was just wondering if the Pak is harder to learn/teach?

 

[gymdog]

If you're taller or have flyaway issues. It's also hard to kip out of. That said I personally think they're a lot easier...I never really caught on to the shootover. Maybe because I learned a pak first...I couldn't really make myself travel OVER the bar. Not good, lol

But the kip out and routine construction are the main thing. you'd have to kip cast turn (pirouette or drop into blind) out of the pak...the shootover can directly connect to a toe shoot to high bar which is also bonus. These factors contribute to the popularity. Also the shootover can be taught incrementally, first an easier swing to clear support (may be easier to learn the kip out of as long as it finishes in controlled support) and then to handstand.

 

[gymcoach34]

A pak usually takes longer to teach correctly, its a lot to do w timing. I also only teach kids who have a very strong kip cast hs a pak bc they have to do a kip cast 1/2 pirouette out of it (most of the time.)

 

[ZJsMom]

Thanks for the replies. These things make sense. It will be interesting to see her coach's view. He's not at all a one size fits all type of coach and her encourages kids to be involved in their own planning.

Also the shootover can be taught incrementally, first an easier swing to clear support (may be easier to learn the kip out of as long as it finishes in controlled support) and then to handstand.

This reminded me of another question I have. There's a sort of straddled Pak (not sure if it has a name). Amy Chow does it here:
[YOUTUBE]n70NG_CyNhI[/YOUTUBE]

I've never seen this in a JO meet, but wouldn't this be a good incremental step towards a Pak?

 

[gymdog]

Peach salto, she does it more like a straddled pak, but some girls do a (somewhat easier) version where you'd straddle through sort of like a stalder (so before the release) then kind of let go. Easier to not hit your toes, but we have the bars so far apart now that staldering through makes it harder to catch in a good position to kip IMO. Doing it the way she does it might make it a little bit easier to kip out of though. I've tried both and personally never caught on to the straddle - found it harder to stall out the rotation with the toes pulling over (no stretch) and then if you catch wrong you're going to peel to your back. That's the real issue for me with paks, the catch being consistent, because in my experience just directionally it's easy to peel to your neck/back on the glide out and more difficult to safety spot. You see a lot of coaches step in on the shootover to slow it down if necessary, and on the pak too, but on the pak the kid could look to catch okay from the inside of the bar and then peel off at the extension of the glide. I've done that myself. I've seen it more with paks, although it could happen out of any release really...the pak just seems to sort of invite it because you don't always catch as much in support so it's easier to not have your hands in the best position on the bar.

But really with the straddle, especially the stalder technique, it could be useful I guess, but it's still couldn't be done in L8 so there's that. Also to some extent it's a little different, especially if you stalder in earlier, that's really a very different swing through and release than a pak.